FocusCanada Forums

P-51,Jun 21 2007, 12: Wrote:I think the AG used a Fram air filter insted of an OEM air filter last time he had his car serviced instead of an OEM filter.  I saw him street racing last night.  Honest.

Crush his car.
[right][snapback]241996[/snapback][/right]

Ummm.. does the AG actually drive the car or does he have a driver?

Just curious?

reldridge,Jun 21 2007, 11:25 AM Wrote:Anybody know what the Attorney General drives? I think I saw him street racing last night... :lol:

Ryan
[right][snapback]241988[/snapback][/right]

Seriously, anybody know what he drives?

Probably a bone stock, 600hp Mercedes. But that's ok, it's stock, so it could never be used for racing.

Flofocus,Jun 21 2007, 12:55 PM Wrote:

reldridge,Jun 21 2007, 11:25 AM Wrote:Anybody know what the Attorney General drives? I think I saw him street racing last night... :lol:

Ryan
[right][snapback]241988[/snapback][/right]

Seriously, anybody know what he drives?
[right][snapback]242002[/snapback][/right]

I thought he was treated like the embassy guys, who get Choffeured around in a big black lincoln or something like that....

Maybe we should take a cruise along the 401, doing 100kms/hour from TO to Niagara, making sure that we are all legal, of course

Nah, that's a non-(special interest group) protest. We'll get arrested, thrown in the slammer AND have our cars crushed to make an example of us. Resistance is futile.

There is an actual case in Ontario where a guy got a ticket for 114 in a 100 on the 401, took it to court, and the judge told him that even 1kmph over is speeding. So, him and a buddy went out and did 100km/h side by side down the 401, causing a 40km backup. A judge then convicted them of obstructing traffic or something, and suspended their licenses for like a year.

Anyway, I sent this off to Michael Bryant's office:

Quote:Dear Sir,

I am writing in response to articles written in a number of newspapers reporting on some statements which you made.  These articles quoted you as saying: "The government has the power to seize and destroy cars that have been adapted for street racing, and can do so before a race takes place or any charges are laid".  Furthermore, and more alarmingly you are quoted “If we can establish someone has parts and they're juicing up their car — obviously for the purpose of street racing — then we can seize those vehicles,”

I ask you sir, how you or anybody else can be certain of the intented use of a modified car before a crime has been committed?  Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that many responsible, law abiding citizens have modified cars, and have no intention of street racing.

Some like to show their cars in organized, or impromptu yet completely legal enthusiast meetings. 

Others, like myself, use modified cars to participate in legal, sanctioned motorsports activities such as open track sessions at race tracks, or autocross competitions which are courses set up in parking lots which are rented by the organizing body and closed to the public.

I drive my car to and from these events, because I do not wish to incur the cost and environmental damage that would be caused by purchasing a large truck and trailer to tow the vehicle to events.  Therefore, I have made every effort to restrict my modifications to those which are legal. I have done this through careful consideration of Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and Ministry of Transport Ontario Regulations, also aided by the fact that I am an automotive engineer by profession.

However, I might suggest that my vehicle and modifications would be indistinguishable from those intended for street racing upon inspection by a police officer or government official.  So, perhaps you can understand my concern with the statements you have made which suggest my car could be seized and destroyed, because somebody has decided it appears to be built for street racing.

I should take this opportunity to inform you that not only do I not participate in street racing, I take every opportunity to discourage others, in large part because I am aware of the damage it causes to the image of modified vehicles used for legal activities.

The irony of this situation is that your statements appear to be in response to the recent death of David Virgoe on Highway 400, and the death of a taxi driver in Toronto last year.  In the case of the Hwy 400 incident, I can say with some certainty that one, if not both of the cars involved were not modified in any way.  I base this on photos of the cars published after the collision.  I assure you I have extensive experience that leads me to draw this conclusion from simple photos, but if you should require professional assistance in determining this for certain, I would gladly offer my services in that regard.

In the case of the taxi driver, my understanding is both drivers were driving their parents cars, which likely were not modified, but rather large luxury sedans which came from the factory with high horsepower engines.

And this brings me to my main point.  How can you suggest that modified cars MUST be intended for use in street racing, and therefore destroyed, when two of the most high profile recent cases involved vehicles which were in fact completely stock?  Is it not the case that any vehicle, in any condition, can be used for illegal street racing?  And therefore the evidence used to justify the confiscation and destruction of a vehicle MUST be based on the actual illegal use of that vehicle, and not merely the appearance of that vehicle?

If you wish to make car modifications illegal because you fear they can only be used for illegal racing, then I suggest you ask the government to draft a law making modifications illegal.  I caution you however, that this will quickly get mired down with the question of what is a modification for illegal activities, what is a modification for legal activities (ie, installation of trailer hitches, extra lighting, improved fuel economy, etc).More importantly would you allow ANY maintenance product to be used which deviates from factory specification?  For example, most people recognize that brakes are highly important for vehicle safety.  Will you also outlaw the use of cheap, underperforming brake pads which are in common use these days?

Perhaps the government might also pass a law outlawing the sale of vehicles with excessive horsepower from the original manufacturer?  If one concludes that high powered modified cars must be intended for street racing, one also has to ask the question of what is the intended use of cars which are designed with excessive power from the manufacturer.  And then what is the definition of excessive power?  In the recent case, I believe one of the cars was a completely stock, Pontiac Grand Am.  It probably had on the order of "only" 170 horsepower from the factory, yet is still capable of achieving at least 160 km/h.  If this vehicle could be used in this terrible accident, then one might question why the government also allows the sale of cars with 200, 300, 400... even 500 horsepower such as the case of the Ford Mustang Shelby GT500.  Surely these cars must be intended for street racing also?  How about large luxury vehicles such as Mercedes Benz produces, with large engines usually over 300hp, and sometimes up to 400?

Again, we come back to the fact that vehicles do not commit the crime of street racing, it is the drivers. And you cannot determine the intent of the driver without a police officer witnessing the crime.

I would like a contraction, or clarification of your statements, because I believe they have no basis in logic, and I would like to believe no basis in law.  I will be sending a similar complaint letter to my MPP, as well as members of the opposition.  Perhaps the government has underestimated the numbers of law abiding citizens who possess modified cars.  This could be a big mistake in an election year, as many of us are very concerned with your statements, and we'll be sure to discuss the injustice you're proposing with our friends and families.

Perhaps the government's time would be better spent passing a bill which defines minimum sentencing guidelines for people convicted of Street Racing Resulting in Death.  The recent sentencing of Wang-Piao Dumani Ross and Alexander Ryazanov will do nothing to convince other young people of the potential consequences of street racing.

Sincerely,
Robert XXX

-pfft- I dare these idiots to come after my car because I've modified it.

I'd have them mired in a human rights complaint so deep they couldn't see daylight in ten years if they started digging today!

"Modify your car = get car crushed"? Nuh uh, not gonna happen...

Idiots seem to forget that there is an election coming up in October :angry:

Go after the idiots that actually cause harm! Don't let them plea bargain the punishment down to a kiss on the cheek instead of the kick in the @$$ that these idiots need :angry:

NefCanuck

p51 great letter. i hope something comes as a result of it

unfortunately, enthusiasts are in the minority, and there seems to be a media frenzy whipped up around this topic in ontario in general and toronto specifically that makes it unlikely anything will happen in our favor

also, if you did get caught of 'suspected' racing.. couldn't you just get a really good lawyer and get all charges dropped plus sue the state for infringing on your rights? or does that only happen in the US

P-51 - AWESOME letter.

I have to admit, this cast a pall of doubt on my recent plans to turbo the Duratec. I'm still likely to go through with it, but images of being pulled over randomly for "street racing equipment" searches without probable cause bother me.

Daniel - I'll keep you and your legal expertise in mind should I ever end up the target of these hare-brained new laws / rules. :)

NOS2Go4Me,Jun 21 2007, 03:15 PM Wrote:P-51 - AWESOME letter.

I have to admit, this cast a pall of doubt on my recent plans to turbo the Duratec. I'm still likely to go through with it, but images of being pulled over randomly for "street racing equipment" searches without probable cause bother me.

Daniel - I'll keep you and your legal expertise in mind should I ever end up the target of these hare-brained new laws / rules. :)
[right][snapback]242031[/snapback][/right]

LOL... just remember I may be fighting my own battles with this ridiculous bit of nanny-state lawmaking and so I might not have time for you ;)

NefCanuck

The same thread is going on on the other local forum down here
and one of the members wrote the letter to the attorney general

Dear Attorney General,


I'm scared. The government has officially scared me today and I’ve been deemed as a criminal for something I didn't do. I'm going to have my possessions taken away and destroyed before I even get charged with a crime. I'm going to be labelled as a criminal before I even step into a court house. I'm going to be deemed a bad person for doing what I've done everyday for the last 5 years.

You might be wondering what I'm talking about. I'm talking about driving my car. My 1990 Honda CR-X SiR or my 1988 Honda CRX DX. I’m officially scared to drive now because new legislation says that because my cars are modified they are going to be taken off the road and destroyed because they can be used for street racing. I'm not even going to get a chance to fight it. I'm not going to get my day in court until after the car is the size of a folding chair. What if I get absolved of all charges? Would I get all those hours, all that time and effort, all that money, all the frustration back from the government? Or will I just get a 'Opps. My bad. Sorry about crushing your car.'

Since when has the government become so concerned about what a man does with his car that they would crush it before there is any proof? I'm not a legal man, but I'm also not an idiot. Other than one case that I can see, where that Red 93ish Honda Civic in Toronto last year that killed those people, all other 'street racing' crashes regarding a fatality was caused by stock cars. A kid out on a joy ride with mommy or daddy's rides.

I don't street race, do burn outs, slide around corners, cut in and out of traffic, or any other illegal driving of that sort. I've had my fair share of harassments from the police, but never received a ticket other than 1 ticket for license plate in the window when thieves stole my mounting bracket for the plate earlier that day. I've said to myself, "Mike you know you’re going to have to deal with getting pulled over once every few weeks because of the cars you drive, but you’re ok, it’s worth it." Its now not worth it if I’m going to get a cop who is either misinformed or just in a bad mood take my car and crush it.
Do you see what this law is going to do? Call John at BAC Autobody / Authority Motorsport in Waterloo (519-884-9511) up and talk to him about how it’s going to kill his business. We talked for over an hour today that he is going to go out of business because of this new law if cars actually start to get crushed.

This law is going to kill freedom of choice. I want a car that I can say is my own. I want a car that looks the way I want it to. I have the money; I follow the laws to make it that way. I'm a good guy, but when I’m behind the wheel of my Honda does that make me a criminal because I love my cars? If you want everyone to be safe on the roads outlaw all cars, hand out free Hyundai Accents with Automatic transmissions and leave it at that. At least piss off everyone at once instead of fighting an invisible enemy.

You are throwing all your arsenal and tactics at an enemy that doesn’t exist. What defines modified for street racing? Bigger brakes, roll cages, light weight seats, seat belt harnesses? That type of stuff? Because those sound to me like they make the car safer. What about my CR-X I imported from Japan. It has a header and an exhaust. Does that mean it’s built for street racing? What about a Cobalt SS since it has a Supercharger on it from the factory and has more power than the other Cobalt models does that make it built for street racing?

See the funny thing is that, I don’t know of any organized street racing that has ever gone on in the last 5 years. The closest that I can think of is people cruising to a place, like the race track and kind of pulling on each other on the highway. Maybe living in Kitchener / Waterloo area is the reason behind that, but nothing even remotely close to anything seen in the movies has taken place. Am I now going to get my car taken away because I and a few other friends with modified cars go to Tim Hortons to meet for an hour or two and talk by our cars? I’ve been doing this for years and not once has this resulted in a street race in any Tim Hortons, but will that information stop the police?

What constitutes a street race? Doesn’t a race have a start and an end? Do 2 people speeding on the highway mean a race? What if someone is being an idiot and speed matches me going 110 on the 401? Are we street racing?

The government has done a great job of leaving the public in the dark about all these new laws and legislations regarding street racing. You’re scaring people like me who have never even come close to it before. It’s almost like you’re the old man down the road with nothing better to do than sit on his porch and shake his cane at you because of the car you drive. Saying he is going to get you. But this time the old man has the power to crush your car in the night.

It’s a sad day today that I’m a criminal. A criminal without being charged but will see the consequences, guilty until going to court to prove I’m innocent.
These laws are going to see the end of Hot Rod shops, tuner shops, aftermarket performance companies, race tracks, car clubs, and many other things. I take it to the track, but will Officer Jones believe me when he pulls me over? I doubt that.
I’m scared and feel ashamed to live in Ontario. Thank you for making me feel like a criminal.
My name and contact info here

And then the same member wrote to Mr Askin of the Waterloo Regional Police.



Dear Mr. Askin,

Im sorry if you are not the correct person to talk to about this, but I did my best to chose from the list of emails provided from the WRPS's website. Hopefully you are the right person to contact.

My name is Mike. I live in Kitchener. Ive lived in this area for most of my life. When anyone ever asked me about it I said, "Kitchener / Waterloo area is a great place to live! Low crime, great people, its central to Ontario, booming businesses and family friendly!" now I dont really know what to tell them.

I'm so confused on what to say now. It may be because that I am now a criminal. I am a bad guy. I will be punished for actions not seen by a judge. I will have my property taken away and destroyed before I even get a chance to talk to my lawyer. I will be guilty before I even step into the court house and have to prove that I am innocent, but it doesnt really matter because I will have already been punished. I guess you are wondering what I'm talking about. According to new laws police can take my car and crush it because it is modified. Saying that because it is modified its going to be used to street race. I almost fell out of my chair and choked on my dinner when I read this.

This is the specific article that I read:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20070620/ca...eet_racing_cars

Im not a kid. Ive been driving for a decent amount of time. I enjoy modifing my cars and driving them. I mean we all have to drive, why cant I drive in something that I like and have created? These new laws and legislations are going to kill my freedom of choice. I know you dont get to pick and chose what laws that you as police regulate, but please see it from my stand point. There are so many variations and room for error in these laws. Am I and others going to be punished for going to work or on a Sunday cruise? Am I going to have my car crushed because me and a few other car guys meet up at Tim Hortons to talk and just shoot the s***?

Personally I have 2 modified cars. My summer car which is a 1990 Honda CR-X SiR (that I imported from Japan) and my winter car which is a 1988 Honda CRX DX. You can see how I am scared because of this. My means of transportation are at risk because of these new laws. Ive had to deal with my fair share of being pulled over. More times over the last 5 years or so than I can count. We used to joke about it actually since I have got a ticket. Now we are not joking. Now there is no fun involved with these cars. Now Im scared to drive to work. Ive never street raced, never done burnouts in a public road, never slid around a corner, never cut in and out of traffic, but I am now a criminal.

What am I suposed to do? Get myself a Hyundai Pony and call it a day? Why am I a criminal? What did I do? I know about 90% of the people in Waterloo Region with a modified car. You know how many organized street races that Ive been to or know of taking place in the last 5 years. Zero. The closest thing to that is maybe 2 people pulling on each other on the highway on the way to St. Thomas or Cayuga to go to the race track.

Im now officially scared to live, work, and be a citizen of Waterloo region becuase of this. Ive been grouped with people who I dont associate myself with. Put in that group of people by others who use movies and irrational judgement to swing their oppinions and power.

I want to talk to someone about this. I want to hear an officer talk to people with modified cars and let them know whats going on. All we have to go on so far is a guy named SPOC on Vitalmotion.net who says he is a cop and pretty much tells everyone they are an idiot when they are concerned about what is going on.

We are scared. By we I mean the honest people. We need to know what is going on.

My contact information

If everyone is done venting, lets all go out and get superchargers! WOO HOO!

Who's with me?!

:lol:

Here what's going on in Cali.
Southern California authorities crack down on illegal hot rods, street racing

and this photo made me laugh......its sad but yet funny

Guys, remember this is an election year. This is just another one of those tactics by politicians to gain momentum for another 4 year pass to cash.

You can bet that it'll be a cold day in hell before I vote for Dalton ever again.

Alien-Tek,Jun 21 2007, 06: Wrote:If everyone is done venting, lets all go out and get superchargers! WOO HOO!

Who's with me?!

:lol:
[right][snapback]242045[/snapback][/right]

you paying for mine?

NikiterZTS,Jun 21 2007, 07:12 PM Wrote:Here what's going on in Cali.
Southern California authorities crack down on illegal hot rods, street racing

and this photo made me laugh......its sad but yet funny


[right][snapback]242050[/snapback][/right]

I don't see any Foci in those pictures, we must be fine... in California :ph34r:

Let's elect naz as the scout and we'll all slowly move to Cali.

oldeguy,Jun 22 2007, 06:49 AM Wrote:

Alien-Tek,Jun 21 2007, 06: Wrote:If everyone is done venting, lets all go out and get superchargers! WOO HOO!

Who's with me?!

:lol:
[right][snapback]242045[/snapback][/right]

you paying for mine?
[right][snapback]242079[/snapback][/right]

I might rabbit... I might.

Oscar The Grouch,Jun 21 2007, 10:12 PM Wrote:Guys, remember this is an election year.  This is just another one of those tactics by politicians to gain momentum for another 4 year pass to cash.

You can bet that it'll be a cold day in hell before I vote for Dalton ever again.
[right][snapback]242072[/snapback][/right]

Exactly.

These letters wont do anything, let me know when they get the automated response :lol:

I wrote to the same people about the whole pitbull ban, and I got the automated response :rolleyes:

I know some of you are thinking, 'yeah well thats different...'
but to me it isn't. To me, it's simply: The government, the same one I lose over 35% of my salary to, is making it really hard for me to enjoy the thingds I like to do. PERIOD.