10-05-2006, 10:28 PM
kamilk69,Oct 4 2006, 10:06 PM Wrote:i did a 14.7 with one of the worst reaction times ive ever seen.
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I did a lot worse. :lol:
10-05-2006, 10:28 PM
10-05-2006, 10:56 PM
ZX3TUNING,Oct 5 2006, 12:52 AM Wrote:I'm not sure what is special about running high 14s with a turbo...?
i cracked into the 14s back in `00 while NA and with less than 150fwhp and 145lb/ft.
It is nothing special, we were just comparing our times. :rolleyes:ÃÂ My better time was 14.2@101mph, with the new tune, Im hoping for high 13's.ÃÂ Just havent been able to hit the track yet.
Quote:Easy of install of any kit is all the in the kit.
a PWSC takes abour 14-18hours first time, i do it in about 10hours now.
JRSC's claim 10hours but usually it takes 12-14hours.
Vortech claimed 17hours but takes more like 30hours unless you have installed a ton of them.
Most turbo kits take about 14hours according to most sites.
there are always varriables to consider; broken parts, rusted bolts/nuts, retapping threads/holes.
I agree, especially on the bolt part, right now I could probable take off and re-install MY kit in less than 4 hours.
Quote:As for performance, it's always interesting to see Turbo guys tout turbo's being easier to upgrade and have a higher limit.
Not always the truth.
with any system you will outgrow components and there is always a limit for how much boost a engine will take, turbo or SC.
simple facts are at about 250fwhp you are reaching the "safe" limits of wehat a Stock Zetec can hold. tuning aside, more than 250 and you are pushing your luck and that goes for turbo or NA.
"well with a Turbo it's easier to get more power and for cheaper, you just have to flip a switch or turn a nob and turn up the boost!"
while this is true, to a point, it also is not true.
flipping said switch or turning a nob only works if the tuning is there first. tuning for a dual level boost costs more and needs to be done BEFORE you turn up the boost.
with the PWSC, we are getting 250fwhp and 210lb/ft with a full exhaust (like you would have with a turbo), our cams and a retune on the stock PW 12psi pully with more power left on tap with a more agressive tune. without the retune we were seeing 10lb/ft less on stock PW tuning.... Pretty simple power.
So, you said what we already said, tuning, tuning, tuning. If your turning up the boost without proper tuning and turnign it up to high, then your an idiot anyways, and obviously didnt do your homework. I bought a elec boost controller for the car to turn up the boost, I can probably go as high as 15psi with the td05, but wont obviously until I forge the block. And that 15psi is reached with a turn of a button, not dismantling your pulleys and reinstalling something else.
What I love is I can set my boost at 9psi for everyday driving, then throw it up to 12 when i hit the track. Lets see a SC do that with a flick of a switch, then bring it back down for the ride home. I can run 9psi at the track while spinning 1 & 2, then hit 12-13psi, once I get traction. I wanna see a SC do that.
My car has stock internals. Nothing done to it, 9psi its putting down over 200Whp/trq. Im sure with cams, and a retune Id be in your territory also.
Quote:"oh but your SC will max out before my Turbo!"
the M62 blower in the PWSC and SVT JRSC will push 18psi, however the JRSC wont do it well without intercooling.
18psi on a built motor, the right internals and a good tune will see 300+fwhp out of a PWSC.
with a T25, you are going to be maxing out your turbo at around 240-260fwhp.
i'm not familiar enough with the td05 to be able to comment on it...
the average turbo that works well with the focus in street trim will peak out at about 250-280fwhp, a few will push 300 and very few will push up to 350, well atleast that come with off "KITS".
Depending on turbos your right. Bering and I's are NOT the best example to use. Now if we were talking a t3 or a 16g in my case, it would change you whole argument. Plus I'm willing to bet that the T25 could get you close to 300whp out of an SVT focus with proper tuning also. It wouldnt be the most efficient turbo to achive that, you would obviously go with a bigger turbo if yor aiming for 300whp out of an svtf. I would be surprised that soembody that did their homework picked the JR to get 300whp. That doesnt make sense to me, I would get something IC, and runs less psi to get those numbers. 18psi out of a JR into a svtf doesnt sound reliable to me.
With a 16G turbo, proper tuning, built engine, 300whp shouldnt be a problem, we'll see soon anuff, heh. :D
Turbos ARE better B) :P
Ive driven both SC and turbo foci's, and I'll take my boost through a turbo anyday over a sc. :D :D
10-06-2006, 04:13 AM
ZX3TUNING,Oct 5 2006, 12:52 AM Wrote:LOL!Who said anything about 14s being special.. as Nate said, we are comparing setup/times.. breaking 14s with 150whp is nothing special either considering I did 16.0 when the car was 100% stock (lets say ~105whp).. add about 40-45whp N/A (around 40% more power), you should be at least in the low 15s and 14s.. at least with this car.. isnt that what the JRSC gives you with 5psi of boost?
always fun to come into a one sided conversation newar then end.
I'm not sure what is special about running high 14s with a turbo...?
i cracked into the 14s back in `00 while NA and with less than 150fwhp and 145lb/ft.
Easy of install of any kit is all the in the kit.
a PWSC takes abour 14-18hours first time, i do it in about 10hours now.
JRSC's claim 10hours but usually it takes 12-14hours.
Vortech claimed 17hours but takes more like 30hours unless you have installed a ton of them.
Most turbo kits take about 14hours according to most sites.
there are always varriables to consider; broken parts, rusted bolts/nuts, retapping threads/holes.
As for performance, it's always interesting to see Turbo guys tout turbo's being easier to upgrade and have a higher limit.
Not always the truth.
with any system you will outgrow components and there is always a limit for how much boost a engine will take, turbo or SC.
simple facts are at about 250fwhp you are reaching the "safe" limits of wehat a Stock Zetec can hold. tuning aside, more than 250 and you are pushing your luck and that goes for turbo or NA.
"well with a Turbo it's easier to get more power and for cheaper, you just have to flip a switch or turn a nob and turn up the boost!"
while this is true, to a point, it also is not true.
flipping said switch or turning a nob only works if the tuning is there first. tuning for a dual level boost costs more and needs to be done BEFORE you turn up the boost.
with the PWSC, we are getting 250fwhp and 210lb/ft with a full exhaust (like you would have with a turbo), our cams and a retune on the stock PW 12psi pully with more power left on tap with a more agressive tune. without the retune we were seeing 10lb/ft less on stock PW tuning.... Pretty simple power.
"oh but your SC will max out before my Turbo!"
the M62 blower in the PWSC and SVT JRSC will push 18psi, however the JRSC wont do it well without intercooling.
18psi on a built motor, the right internals and a good tune will see 300+fwhp out of a PWSC.
with a T25, you are going to be maxing out your turbo at around 240-260fwhp.
i'm not familiar enough with the td05 to be able to comment on it...
the average turbo that works well with the focus in street trim will peak out at about 250-280fwhp, a few will push 300 and very few will push up to 350, well atleast that come with off "KITS".
i still fail to see the vailidity to the whole "turbos are easier to upgrade" arguement... and turbos + stock header = junk!
My $0.02
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As for turbos being easier to upgrade, we don't just say that caus we have turbos. Turbos, are usually more efficient than superchargers. As long as the turbo is not too out of range for the engine you are using it with..same for superchargers. Problem is if you run out of steam from your m45 jrsc BBK .. what are you gonna do? get an m62 for an svt, redo the whole fabrication so its fits?? What other options are there? buy JUST the supercharger from the powerworks kit.. do they even do that?.... Most of the time, people who start with boost have a goal.. and lots of times, after driving with their goal for a while, they want MORE.. So you gonna sell your jrsc , then get a PWSC? Waste of money i think.. Ok its true that you will often "outgrow" components in the car but that is besides the fact.. if you want big power, you will have to upgrade whatever paths you choose whether it be N/A or FI, an engine has its limits. We are talking about the limits of the turbo vs supercharger..
What if my T25 explodes tomorrow.. well i could just get another 200$ rebuilt t25.. or if all of a sudden i want 280whp and faster spool.. oh well i could just get a t28.. or if the turbo still worked, switch compressor side from the t28 to the t25.. or maybe i will just get a new bb gt28 instead and bolt it right on to my exhaust manifold and downpipe.
As for a switch/knob to turn up the boost, well that is just wrong and although it is very easy to turn up the boost with a turbo (when you dont have that option with the supercharger unless it has a boost controller solenoid of some sort), that shouldn't be considered a "mod" for more power.. it should be decided before hand the amount of boost and the tuning for that amount fo boost. IT IS however an added feature that superchargers do not have.. you also have to consider that i am not an engineer and im a computer programmer and still built a turbo setup in my driveway, I never could've pulled that off just taking a supercharger (finding one that matches the engine is even harder) and fabricating everything back to match the engine..
Basicly though, you are talking stricly of the PWSC has its really the only one that has the potential to reach 300whp in a stock (non SVT) zetec.. i thought flo was making 220 and 230lb/ft at 9psi (maybe i got the numbers wrong).. I can imagine with cams, he would get fairly good gains also..but the torque is still there.. also if he were to go up to 12psi, well obviously thats more ponnies there too.. that is also considering that the PWSC hasnt been out THAT long and before that, there wasn't anything with the same potential in the supercharger area.. and also for the price.. the pwsc is not that cheap..
My opinion, is if i were to get a supercharger, the only one i would consider would be the PWSC.. but thats the one that changed the whole s/c on a focus too .. oh yeah and it was made with cosworth.. most people can't make a supercharger kit in their driveway.. again, not saying superchargers are bad..
*EDIT
Its all about torque.. the feeling is not there either in a sc car.. just taking my buddies cobalt lets say.. he runs around the same times as me but you just dont feel it when you're driving.. s/c usually dont get the same torque a turbo can get you either.. i mean 210 is still pretty good.. but at 12psi..a perfectly matched turbo would get you much more than 210..
hell even my buddy and his cobalt SS (that runs actually a little faster than me on the top-end) said he liked turbos better when he drove my car.. the power is there, but the feeling is just not the same.. same if people asked about either going n/a or FI .. its just not the same feeling.. but in the end, this feeling is personal opinion..
I can only imagine if powerworks would work on a turbo setup, what they would be able to attain.. or better yet, if me and flo had the money and r&d and testing facilities that cosworth/powerworks used to develop that 5000$ supercharger kit..
-----
As far turbo + stock header being junk.. i won't say anything, but I would love to hear your engineering perspective on the stock non-svt zetec engine.
10-06-2006, 04:19 AM
Flofocus,Oct 5 2006, 08:28 AM Wrote:kamilk69,Oct 4 2006, 10:06 PM Wrote:i did a 14.7 with one of the worst reaction times ive ever seen.
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I did a lot worse. :lol:
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reaction times only matter if your racing someone, it has nothing to do with you time. you could wait 10 secs til after the lights drop and you will still run the same time.
10-06-2006, 06:28 AM
my bad, thought he was talking 60ft times...
10-06-2006, 07:04 AM
Who cares what's better.
Going fast is why we do it.
You guys can argue this until your face drops off.
I'm going to race someone. :lol:
Going fast is why we do it.
You guys can argue this until your face drops off.
I'm going to race someone. :lol:
10-06-2006, 10:07 AM
meford4u,Oct 5 2006, 05:04 PM Wrote:Who cares what's better.
Going fast is why we do it.
You guys can argue this until your face drops off.
I'm going to race someone. :lol:
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I'll take you on, but I want 10 car lengths :D
NefCanuck
10-06-2006, 12:50 PM
NefCanuck,Oct 5 2006, 08:07 PM Wrote:Done. Were racing for slips.meford4u,Oct 5 2006, 05:04 PM Wrote:Who cares what's better.
Going fast is why we do it.
You guys can argue this until your face drops off.
I'm going to race someone. :lol:
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I'll take you on, but I want 10 car lengths :D
NefCanuck
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From my house to your house you get a 10 car lead.
Now to explain the look of horror on my wife's face when i bring Daniel's car home and she goes to step in and drive it. :lol:
10-06-2006, 01:30 PM
meford4u,Oct 5 2006, 10:50 PM Wrote:NefCanuck,Oct 5 2006, 08:07 PM Wrote:Done. Were racing for slips.meford4u,Oct 5 2006, 05:04 PM Wrote:Who cares what's better.
Going fast is why we do it.
You guys can argue this until your face drops off.
I'm going to race someone. :lol:
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I'll take you on, but I want 10 car lengths :D
NefCanuck
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From my house to your house you get a 10 car lead.
Now to explain the look of horror on my wife's face when i bring Daniel's car home and she goes to step in and drive it. :lol:
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:huh: But what's gonna cause her the look of horror? The extra gas pedal or the choice of music in the CD player? :lol:
and if by some insane act of god I ended up with your car... I'd give it to my dad, just to watch his look of horror trying to get the car into his driveway (Old open sewer system up there, means the sewer pipe dividing the property has raised, would cause any lowered Focus to become an expensive lever on a fulcrum :P)
NefCanuck
10-06-2006, 01:53 PM
Sorry, i like to break up quotes, easier to reply this way...
j/k
there are lots of good SC's out there, it's a matter of building a good kit which is the hard part.
both the Procharger and Vortech (Vortech and FS kits) units will push well into the 300+ ranges. only problem is they have no bottom end to speak of when pushed like that.
I hate to say it but if you were foolish enough to waste your money on a JRSC for the Zetec or SVT, in the pursuit of power, you wasted your money in the first place!! :P
Cutting your losses and moving into a different kit would be the first smart move if you want more power.
you cannot go from a t25 to a T3, T4 or anything else that isn't based of a Garret T25 flange. and while there is tons of stuff to play with in the GT2x and GT30 lines, most of those are still $1000+cnd retail for a new unit.
Tekkin on FJ built a M90 JRSC based blower for his Focus at his house... it can be done, you just have to be a little more resourcefull! ;)
220 and 230lb/ft at 9psi is pretty impressive considering toms kits at 9psi only seem to make 190fwhp on most cars unless they went to tom for tuning on his dyno... granted it does take power to make power with a SC, our 250fwhp PW car only makes 8.5-9.5psi to get those numbers...
with the PW kit you will see about 150lb/ft from just off idle, most turbo kits don't see that till 2500-3500rpm.
oh and the PW kit is cheap, at $3550cnd shipped, what else is comparable for what you get right out of the box??
again, potential is where you find it.
the Procharger and Vortech kits have the ability to push more power than the PW kits, only problem is focus owners for the most part are either too cheap or don't want to be a test-dummy to see what's possible.
but then again a Lysholm SC will make more torque than a Turbo in most cases and will make it from idle to redline, no peaks and dips, just a nice increasing table top! ;)
with turbo's, it's all piping so you can route and make things fit much easier than a SC... well atleast a roots SC.
with something like a Procharger, once the SC bracket is built and the SC is hung, then you can play with piping all you want! :)
the stock header is crippling for flow and hurts spoolup in a large way. log manifolds flow a lot better than the stock manifold but nothing tops an equal-length manifold when it comes to turbos....
i give props to those tha build DIY kits using the stock manifold but again, if you are fater serious power, you are going to hit your peak at about 200fwhp with the stock manifold before it starts to become a HUGE bottleneck in the system requiring a complete system overhaul. unless of course you swap it for a shorty header then you get to enjoy welds cracking and exhaust leaks on a regular basis.... :)
BerinG,Oct 5 2006, 10:13 AM Wrote:Who said anything about 14s being special.. as Nate said, we are comparing setup/times.. breaking 14s with 150whp is nothing special either considering I did 16.0 when the car was 100% stock (lets say ~105whp).. add about 40-45whp N/A (around 40% more power), you should be at least in the low 15s and 14s.. at least with this car.. isnt that what the JRSC gives you with 5psi of boost?while 14s with 150fwhp NA is not something i consider special either, i was just point out that high 14s with boost is something more to be ashamed of! ;) :P
j/k
Quote:As for turbos being easier to upgrade, we don't just say that caus we have turbos. Turbos, are usually more efficient than superchargers. As long as the turbo is not too out of range for the engine you are using it with..same for superchargers. Problem is if you run out of steam from your m45 jrsc BBK .. what are you gonna do? get an m62 for an svt, redo the whole fabrication so its fits?? What other options are there? buy JUST the supercharger from the powerworks kit.. do they even do that?.... Most of the time, people who start with boost have a goal.. and lots of times, after driving with their goal for a while, they want MORE.. So you gonna sell your jrsc , then get a PWSC? Waste of money i think.. Ok its true that you will often "outgrow" components in the car but that is besides the fact.. if you want big power, you will have to upgrade whatever paths you choose whether it be N/A or FI, an engine has its limits. We are talking about the limits of the turbo vs supercharger..that is just it, with a good SC, you don't need to upgrade it all the time.
there are lots of good SC's out there, it's a matter of building a good kit which is the hard part.
both the Procharger and Vortech (Vortech and FS kits) units will push well into the 300+ ranges. only problem is they have no bottom end to speak of when pushed like that.
I hate to say it but if you were foolish enough to waste your money on a JRSC for the Zetec or SVT, in the pursuit of power, you wasted your money in the first place!! :P
Cutting your losses and moving into a different kit would be the first smart move if you want more power.
Quote:What if my T25 explodes tomorrow.. well i could just get another 200$ rebuilt t25.. or if all of a sudden i want 280whp and faster spool.. oh well i could just get a t28.. or if the turbo still worked, switch compressor side from the t28 to the t25.. or maybe i will just get a new bb gt28 instead and bolt it right on to my exhaust manifold and downpipe.only easy to do if they share the same turbo flange.
you cannot go from a t25 to a T3, T4 or anything else that isn't based of a Garret T25 flange. and while there is tons of stuff to play with in the GT2x and GT30 lines, most of those are still $1000+cnd retail for a new unit.
Quote:As for a switch/knob to turn up the boost, well that is just wrong and although it is very easy to turn up the boost with a turbo (when you dont have that option with the supercharger unless it has a boost controller solenoid of some sort), that shouldn't be considered a "mod" for more power.. it should be decided before hand the amount of boost and the tuning for that amount fo boost. IT IS however an added feature that superchargers do not have.. you also have to consider that i am not an engineer and im a computer programmer and still built a turbo setup in my driveway, I never could've pulled that off just taking a supercharger (finding one that matches the engine is even harder) and fabricating everything back to match the engine..with most SC's you are not buying them to be screwing around with different boost levels. you by the kit as it comes and then maybe down the road you opt for the BBK. then again, a SC at 18psi is more drivable than a turbo at 18psi in most cases...
Tekkin on FJ built a M90 JRSC based blower for his Focus at his house... it can be done, you just have to be a little more resourcefull! ;)
Quote:Basicly though, you are talking stricly of the PWSC has its really the only one that has the potential to reach 300whp in a stock (non SVT) zetec.. i thought flo was making 220 and 230lb/ft at 9psi (maybe i got the numbers wrong).. I can imagine with cams, he would get fairly good gains also..but the torque is still there.. also if he were to go up to 12psi, well obviously thats more ponnies there too.. that is also considering that the PWSC hasnt been out THAT long and before that, there wasn't anything with the same potential in the supercharger area.. and also for the price.. the pwsc is not that cheap..i'm not talking just the PWSC, but i am using as a easy point of comparison.
220 and 230lb/ft at 9psi is pretty impressive considering toms kits at 9psi only seem to make 190fwhp on most cars unless they went to tom for tuning on his dyno... granted it does take power to make power with a SC, our 250fwhp PW car only makes 8.5-9.5psi to get those numbers...
with the PW kit you will see about 150lb/ft from just off idle, most turbo kits don't see that till 2500-3500rpm.
oh and the PW kit is cheap, at $3550cnd shipped, what else is comparable for what you get right out of the box??
again, potential is where you find it.
the Procharger and Vortech kits have the ability to push more power than the PW kits, only problem is focus owners for the most part are either too cheap or don't want to be a test-dummy to see what's possible.
Quote:My opinion, is if i were to get a supercharger, the only one i would consider would be the PWSC.. but thats the one that changed the whole s/c on a focus too .. oh yeah and it was made with cosworth.. most people can't make a supercharger kit in their driveway.. again, not saying superchargers are bad..fair enough, i'm not saying turbo's are bad... i like turbos, i just like my PWSC more for what i do with the car. out running Lowboost turbo VR6 golfs at the track with a base PW kit is a nice feeling. just wait till it's pushing 18psi and it will be more expensive and faster cars watching this car pass them! ;)
Quote:*EDITyes you are right, turbos will make more torque.
Its all about torque.. the feeling is not there either in a sc car.. just taking my buddies cobalt lets say.. he runs around the same times as me but you just dont feel it when you're driving.. s/c usually dont get the same torque a turbo can get you either.. i mean 210 is still pretty good.. but at 12psi..a perfectly matched turbo would get you much more than 210..
but then again a Lysholm SC will make more torque than a Turbo in most cases and will make it from idle to redline, no peaks and dips, just a nice increasing table top! ;)
Quote:hell even my buddy and his cobalt SS (that runs actually a little faster than me on the top-end) said he liked turbos better when he drove my car.. the power is there, but the feeling is just not the same.. same if people asked about either going n/a or FI .. its just not the same feeling.. but in the end, this feeling is personal opinion..lets compare apples to apples here, where have you driven or ridden in a Turbo focus and SC'ed focus with similar power back to back?
Quote:I can only imagine if powerworks would work on a turbo setup, what they would be able to attain.. or better yet, if me and flo had the money and r&d and testing facilities that cosworth/powerworks used to develop that 5000$ supercharger kit..to build a good turbo kit you do not need CAD designed parts like with a SC.
with turbo's, it's all piping so you can route and make things fit much easier than a SC... well atleast a roots SC.
with something like a Procharger, once the SC bracket is built and the SC is hung, then you can play with piping all you want! :)
Quote:As far turbo + stock header being junk.. i won't say anything, but I would love to hear your engineering perspective on the stock non-svt zetec engine.i was refering to the use of the stock header being "junk" with a turbo.
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the stock header is crippling for flow and hurts spoolup in a large way. log manifolds flow a lot better than the stock manifold but nothing tops an equal-length manifold when it comes to turbos....
i give props to those tha build DIY kits using the stock manifold but again, if you are fater serious power, you are going to hit your peak at about 200fwhp with the stock manifold before it starts to become a HUGE bottleneck in the system requiring a complete system overhaul. unless of course you swap it for a shorty header then you get to enjoy welds cracking and exhaust leaks on a regular basis.... :)
10-07-2006, 12:19 AM
Yes, I have driven a SC vs Turbo back to back. One was claming to make 190whp out a Vortech, the other was a JR putting down a whoppin 150whp. WOW!
The Vortech equipped car was fast, but my with car with 160whp, and 180wtq still felt faster, the owner o fthe vortech agreed.
Just think what hed say with the new tune, and more psi now. :blink:
And Mitch, thats pure BS saying you dont need to upgrade when you get the SC. Wether your adding cams, larger PSI pulley or bulding the block, your upgrading. Dont make it sound like you can just slap on a SC and expect 200whp/200wtrq :rolleyes: .
Exactly. How many Mitsu upgardes could I run? And literally, all I got to do, is unbolt 1 turbo, clock the new one and install, cant get anymore bolt on right there.
Sure, I'll give ya that, no where near as fun to drive though. :D :D
And honeslty, how useful is that power before 2200 rpm? Gets ya off the line quicker? Naw....maybe spin off the line quicker ;) Again, its that 'turn of a knob' control I love with turbos, low boost for take off or street, high boost for track. :D
Dood, Turbos own the sc, just admit it. :o :P :lol:
The Vortech equipped car was fast, but my with car with 160whp, and 180wtq still felt faster, the owner o fthe vortech agreed.
Just think what hed say with the new tune, and more psi now. :blink:
And Mitch, thats pure BS saying you dont need to upgrade when you get the SC. Wether your adding cams, larger PSI pulley or bulding the block, your upgrading. Dont make it sound like you can just slap on a SC and expect 200whp/200wtrq :rolleyes: .
Quote:only easy to do if they share the same turbo flange.
Exactly. How many Mitsu upgardes could I run? And literally, all I got to do, is unbolt 1 turbo, clock the new one and install, cant get anymore bolt on right there.
Quote:then again, a SC at 18psi is more drivable than a turbo at 18psi in most cases...
Sure, I'll give ya that, no where near as fun to drive though. :D :D
And honeslty, how useful is that power before 2200 rpm? Gets ya off the line quicker? Naw....maybe spin off the line quicker ;) Again, its that 'turn of a knob' control I love with turbos, low boost for take off or street, high boost for track. :D
Dood, Turbos own the sc, just admit it. :o :P :lol:
10-07-2006, 12:37 AM
Sorry I made a mistake for Flo's numbers, he was probably doing those numbers at 12psi.. i just noticed his post mentioning +200whp/lbsft at 9psi..
And I didnt think the PWSC was that cheap now.. which i agree isn't bad for the whole range of potential that you can play with. (not with the flick of a switch but.. :D ) I guess I was looking at focussport which is still 4750$US which is pretty expensive...Obviously its about the same now for the focus on the turbo vs sc.. i guess i was never used to that caus when i decided to go turbo and then buying all my parts, there was only the JRSC and the vortec and both werent cheap 4000$ JRSC (not bbk).. and I was thinking DIY.. and dont remember vortec but it had just came out.. focussports kit isnt too expensive but not "huge" gains..
And for upgrading sure its only in the T2X/GT2X but there is alot to choose from in there.. all variations, you could have a chance between around 20 different turbos.. or just matting 2 different ones etc.. or in my case, it would be possible to just make another adapter plate (or other flange for a custom manifold)
I guess its just preference for turbo.. and the thing about my buddy and his cobalt ss, was not to say the focus is better than the cobalt.. but that we are very much even and he likes the feeling better of the turbo than is his car.. I was just talking the feel.. it IS not the same.. its like a n/a car.. im sure flo agrees, its just not the same pull
And I didnt think the PWSC was that cheap now.. which i agree isn't bad for the whole range of potential that you can play with. (not with the flick of a switch but.. :D ) I guess I was looking at focussport which is still 4750$US which is pretty expensive...Obviously its about the same now for the focus on the turbo vs sc.. i guess i was never used to that caus when i decided to go turbo and then buying all my parts, there was only the JRSC and the vortec and both werent cheap 4000$ JRSC (not bbk).. and I was thinking DIY.. and dont remember vortec but it had just came out.. focussports kit isnt too expensive but not "huge" gains..
And for upgrading sure its only in the T2X/GT2X but there is alot to choose from in there.. all variations, you could have a chance between around 20 different turbos.. or just matting 2 different ones etc.. or in my case, it would be possible to just make another adapter plate (or other flange for a custom manifold)
I guess its just preference for turbo.. and the thing about my buddy and his cobalt ss, was not to say the focus is better than the cobalt.. but that we are very much even and he likes the feeling better of the turbo than is his car.. I was just talking the feel.. it IS not the same.. its like a n/a car.. im sure flo agrees, its just not the same pull
10-07-2006, 02:25 AM
Flo,
come on now...
"claiming"?? :rolleyes:
but that's just it, you can slap on a SC and make power like that. well, actually 220fwhp and 180lb/ft but that is beside the point.... it is possible, that's a major selling point for the PW kit. :P
i was refering to the need to upgrade the blower itself, with all the SC options BUT the JRSC's, there is no need to upgrade the blower to hit 300fwhp. that was my point.
extrenal mods are external mods... just like turbo owners add in FMICs, different wastegates, manifolds, DPs, exhaust, and other engine mods. the need to upgrade a propperly.
Upgrades for my blower are about the same as your turbo, different snout is bolt-on and go.
crank pully is bolt-on and go.
cams are bolt-on and go.
or atleast as much as swaping turbo housings and clocking them.....
how would you know it's no where near as fun to drive?
when was the last time you were in a PW SC'ed or any propperly tuned, propperly sported SC kit for that matter?
you got to go in a base Vortech(if it was claiming 190) and a JRSC with 150... i'll agree with you... WOW! :P
i've pushed cars that felt like they had more power than the couple of Vortech cars that were around here... :blink:
the beauty behind a high boost SC setup, more so with a positive displacement blowerr, is you do not need a LOW boost setting. you drive the car agressively off the line and then roll full on the throttle to maintain traction. my right foot is the boost controller, no switches, no extra tuning.... just a little finess with the go pedal and i can hold 5psi, 10psi, 15psi, 18psi.... for as long as i like or is required.
Don't get me wrong here, i'm not putting turbo's down.
i love turbo cars, you guys are just blowing your own horns a little too hard without having a lot of real world facts to back up your statements. :)
Berin,
i know what you are saying, but there are so many varriables when you bring a different car into the mix.
powerplant, gearing and what has or hasn't been done to the car as far as mods go will make a huge difference in how the car feels.
if you start with the same cars, then you know the differences are just what's each person is running.
hell, i'm building a turbo for a customer right now, when it's done, it will probably be faster than my BBK PW setup....
i love turbo's just as much as my SC's.
only difference is for what i do with this car, the PW kit dominates all other FI options to the end result! ;)
oh and i never said SC's were better than turbos.... :)
come on now...
"claiming"?? :rolleyes:
but that's just it, you can slap on a SC and make power like that. well, actually 220fwhp and 180lb/ft but that is beside the point.... it is possible, that's a major selling point for the PW kit. :P
i was refering to the need to upgrade the blower itself, with all the SC options BUT the JRSC's, there is no need to upgrade the blower to hit 300fwhp. that was my point.
extrenal mods are external mods... just like turbo owners add in FMICs, different wastegates, manifolds, DPs, exhaust, and other engine mods. the need to upgrade a propperly.
Upgrades for my blower are about the same as your turbo, different snout is bolt-on and go.
crank pully is bolt-on and go.
cams are bolt-on and go.
or atleast as much as swaping turbo housings and clocking them.....
how would you know it's no where near as fun to drive?
when was the last time you were in a PW SC'ed or any propperly tuned, propperly sported SC kit for that matter?
you got to go in a base Vortech(if it was claiming 190) and a JRSC with 150... i'll agree with you... WOW! :P
i've pushed cars that felt like they had more power than the couple of Vortech cars that were around here... :blink:
the beauty behind a high boost SC setup, more so with a positive displacement blowerr, is you do not need a LOW boost setting. you drive the car agressively off the line and then roll full on the throttle to maintain traction. my right foot is the boost controller, no switches, no extra tuning.... just a little finess with the go pedal and i can hold 5psi, 10psi, 15psi, 18psi.... for as long as i like or is required.
Don't get me wrong here, i'm not putting turbo's down.
i love turbo cars, you guys are just blowing your own horns a little too hard without having a lot of real world facts to back up your statements. :)
Berin,
i know what you are saying, but there are so many varriables when you bring a different car into the mix.
powerplant, gearing and what has or hasn't been done to the car as far as mods go will make a huge difference in how the car feels.
if you start with the same cars, then you know the differences are just what's each person is running.
hell, i'm building a turbo for a customer right now, when it's done, it will probably be faster than my BBK PW setup....
i love turbo's just as much as my SC's.
only difference is for what i do with this car, the PW kit dominates all other FI options to the end result! ;)
oh and i never said SC's were better than turbos.... :)
10-07-2006, 03:19 AM
lol
no real world facts?
No I havent driven a PWsc car....ever, so I wouldnt know. I have driven SC cars before, including SC foci's. I dont know how much more real your looking for.
I let anybody drive my car, ask anybody that here..lol...those same owners with sc foci's admitted they liked the 'feel' in my car better. Theres drove more like stock, but I was running a s***ty mail order tune, and a unproven diy kit. Again, thats not real world? <_<
It is personal preference, but I havent found any SC cars that made me change my mind yet. Boost rules, Boost through a turbo is even better :P
no real world facts?
No I havent driven a PWsc car....ever, so I wouldnt know. I have driven SC cars before, including SC foci's. I dont know how much more real your looking for.
I let anybody drive my car, ask anybody that here..lol...those same owners with sc foci's admitted they liked the 'feel' in my car better. Theres drove more like stock, but I was running a s***ty mail order tune, and a unproven diy kit. Again, thats not real world? <_<
It is personal preference, but I havent found any SC cars that made me change my mind yet. Boost rules, Boost through a turbo is even better :P
10-18-2006, 07:14 PM
Horses for courses fellas. Personally I prefer a supercharger. My friend Simon prefers his GT28 turbo, but I know if he was to do his car all over again, he'd supercharge instead !
Sure a turbo will give you more torque, but it's nowhere near as responsive as a good SC application.
Example. I took another friend out in my SC Focus. Holding 30mph in 3rd gear, I nailed it as we entered a National Speed Limit zone (60mph in UK). My car took off like a scalded cat. We then repeated the same exercise in my friends 400BHP turbo Focus. When the turbo kicked in, it flew, but by the time it had kicked in I'd have been half way down the road.
Don't forget a good SC set-up is still making power at the high end, a good SC set-up is maintaining torque at the high end.
I do prefer the linearity of an SC over a turbo, but can appreciate the kick in the pants a good turbo can provide.
Sure a turbo will give you more torque, but it's nowhere near as responsive as a good SC application.
Example. I took another friend out in my SC Focus. Holding 30mph in 3rd gear, I nailed it as we entered a National Speed Limit zone (60mph in UK). My car took off like a scalded cat. We then repeated the same exercise in my friends 400BHP turbo Focus. When the turbo kicked in, it flew, but by the time it had kicked in I'd have been half way down the road.
Don't forget a good SC set-up is still making power at the high end, a good SC set-up is maintaining torque at the high end.
I do prefer the linearity of an SC over a turbo, but can appreciate the kick in the pants a good turbo can provide.
10-19-2006, 12:08 PM
Im going to throw my hat into the ring here and perhaps add my 2 cents
Turbo's are a great system and hey , you gotta love the psshhh , however, when i have 3700 bucks jingling in my pocket , im going to go supercharged. For that kinda money and for what you are getting you would have to be a fool not too. The kit comes with everything , intercooler (air to water , which is far better than an air to air system commonly used in turbo appications because people want to keep costs down) and more importantly, IT COMES ALREADY TUNED. Considering this kit was developed ( I believe , correct me if im wrong here mitch) when powerworks was still a division of Cosworth racing, having my car with a ford engine run a cosworth tune right out of the box is a pretty damn good idea to me.
For 3700 bucks ? its a no brainer.
And flo, you keep saying "it feels faster" well , if your buddy in his supercharged car went by you on the top end , obviously "feeling faster" is not faster when it comes down to it all. Your interpretation of "feeling faster" is the kick in the pants you get when your turbo finally spools, which brings me to my next point about superchargers and why they are better.... Power right from the bottom end and linear power at that. Every turbo has lag. Superchargers dont. Plain and simple. I like knowing im making power immediatly and in a smooth line with no peaks, meaning my engine is more useable in every day application and plus it makes driving the car safer, yeah safer , we all know what the common problem with early turbo charged Porsche cars were (1978 specifically) , due to their turbo lag and spooling issues power was unpredictable and yeah people died cause they werent careful of where in the power band they were and suddenly the turbo kicked in and off the road and into the trees they went. Linear power, power that comes on smoothly is the way to go , it might not "feel" as fast , but then again if i drove my car around based on what i thought felt fast i would get a different result that would be slower than what actually is fast. I can take corners and get all 4 wheels loose, or pickup rear wheels all day , but its not as fast as a corner taken properly. Its all about the end result. A fast properly taken corner doenst feel as fast as a poorly taken corner that is actually slower in the end.
And yeah superchargers are parasitic, but so what, so is everything else in your engine bay , alternator, ac , all that stuff, and a little bit of parasitic loss is something im willing to give up for the advantages that a supercharger affords. Lighten the car by 100 lbs and you have that beat. Remember turbos have their own disadvantages too.
However , i still love turbos and gotta love that BOV :P but for this car its supercharger all the way.
Turbo's are a great system and hey , you gotta love the psshhh , however, when i have 3700 bucks jingling in my pocket , im going to go supercharged. For that kinda money and for what you are getting you would have to be a fool not too. The kit comes with everything , intercooler (air to water , which is far better than an air to air system commonly used in turbo appications because people want to keep costs down) and more importantly, IT COMES ALREADY TUNED. Considering this kit was developed ( I believe , correct me if im wrong here mitch) when powerworks was still a division of Cosworth racing, having my car with a ford engine run a cosworth tune right out of the box is a pretty damn good idea to me.
For 3700 bucks ? its a no brainer.
And flo, you keep saying "it feels faster" well , if your buddy in his supercharged car went by you on the top end , obviously "feeling faster" is not faster when it comes down to it all. Your interpretation of "feeling faster" is the kick in the pants you get when your turbo finally spools, which brings me to my next point about superchargers and why they are better.... Power right from the bottom end and linear power at that. Every turbo has lag. Superchargers dont. Plain and simple. I like knowing im making power immediatly and in a smooth line with no peaks, meaning my engine is more useable in every day application and plus it makes driving the car safer, yeah safer , we all know what the common problem with early turbo charged Porsche cars were (1978 specifically) , due to their turbo lag and spooling issues power was unpredictable and yeah people died cause they werent careful of where in the power band they were and suddenly the turbo kicked in and off the road and into the trees they went. Linear power, power that comes on smoothly is the way to go , it might not "feel" as fast , but then again if i drove my car around based on what i thought felt fast i would get a different result that would be slower than what actually is fast. I can take corners and get all 4 wheels loose, or pickup rear wheels all day , but its not as fast as a corner taken properly. Its all about the end result. A fast properly taken corner doenst feel as fast as a poorly taken corner that is actually slower in the end.
And yeah superchargers are parasitic, but so what, so is everything else in your engine bay , alternator, ac , all that stuff, and a little bit of parasitic loss is something im willing to give up for the advantages that a supercharger affords. Lighten the car by 100 lbs and you have that beat. Remember turbos have their own disadvantages too.
However , i still love turbos and gotta love that BOV :P but for this car its supercharger all the way.
10-19-2006, 12:11 PM
and btw flo , didnt your engine blow up while tuning that turbo ??? :P Just thing , if you had the PWSC Kit , you coulda spent all that extra time and money on some other engine mods , perhaps like building a nice bottom end :P LOL , im just razzzzzin ya man.
I havent heard of pwsc kits blowing engines :D
ok ok ill stop :P
I havent heard of pwsc kits blowing engines :D
ok ok ill stop :P
10-19-2006, 01:03 PM
Mike,Oct 18 2006, 10:11 PM Wrote:and btw flo , didnt your engine blow up while tuning that turbo ??? :P Just thing , if you had the PWSC Kit , you coulda spent all that extra time and money on some other engine mods , perhaps like building a nice bottom end :P LOL , im just razzzzzin ya man.
I havent heard of pwsc kits blowing engines :D
ok ok ill stop :P
[right][snapback]212415[/snapback][/right]
Like Ive posted, I havent driven a pwsc car so I cant compare...
And yeah I hear ya on the time thing, was down for a month because of a bad tuner. $300 for a new engine isnt exactly braking the bank though. :D And like you said, now I got a spare to build. I Get to learn how to build an engine now, and still drive the car. :D
My car doesnt go psh, psh, and, I hate laggy turbos. Lets not compare s***ty laggy turbos to a SC. :P
for a diy kit, i cant complain, you guys gotta remeber this was a while ago, I didnt have cheap options like you guys do now.
10-19-2006, 03:35 PM
hey Flo, if you ever want to step up, i'll give you a wicked deal on a PW kit to be my Eastern Promo Car! ;) :P
seriously though, it's hard to compare a JRSC or Vortech both with no torque and marginal HP to a much higher torqued focus with a turbo.
oh and it was Cosworth Technologies that helped design the PW kit.
Cosworth racing and Tech were 2 different branches of the Cosworth name.
seriously though, it's hard to compare a JRSC or Vortech both with no torque and marginal HP to a much higher torqued focus with a turbo.
oh and it was Cosworth Technologies that helped design the PW kit.
Cosworth racing and Tech were 2 different branches of the Cosworth name.
10-19-2006, 10:50 PM
ZX3TUNING,Oct 19 2006, 01:35 AM Wrote:hey Flo, if you ever want to step up, [right][snapback]212456[/snapback][/right]
:lol:
No thanks, next year I'll blow the PW out of the water. SVT or OR ZETEC. B)
With MY kit.
Quote:oh and it was Cosworth Technologies that helped design the PW kit.
thats great!! mine was designed in 36 hours....straight...in a cold ass garage with a freind. :P