FocusCanada Forums

check this link on the pulse24 site, they crush 2 modded Civics

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_1221.aspx

2 civics? No problem against that :P

I still think its a scarey bill, *NOT THAT I'M AGAINST IT* but ZTWsquared keeps touting that only those guilty of the actual crime will be punished for it, but to me it seems only to be in a perfect world were everything is done acording to the letter of the law and no officer or judge will EVER have any personal feelings come into their decision. Sadley we all know this is not always the case. You cannot guarantee that one day someone, somewhere in Canada who does not derserve it will feel the wrath of this law. That is my concern. Those who are punished by it rightfully I have no issue with.

Just IMO.

SVT ZX3,Jun 15 2006, 03:49 PM Wrote:but ZTWsquared keeps touting that only those guilty of the actual crime will be punished for it, [right][snapback]193300[/snapback][/right]

It could be just semantics, but when I read this it struck me that you don't get it.

Bill C-65 does not put a new crime called "street racing" on the books. There is no new crime to be charged with or convicted of. You will never be charged with "street racing" - nobody will.

The only people who will feel any wrath associated with Bill C-65 are those who have already been charged, tried and convicted of one of these four specific crimes:

1) criminal negligence causing death
2) criminal negligence causing bodily harm
3) dangerous driving causing death
4) dangerous driving causing bodily harm

Have you or any one else on this board been charged with any of these? Do you now anticipate that because a judge can impose a stiffer sentence if he thinks street racing was involved, that the cops will suddenly start charging all sorts of innocent people with these crimes?

Look at the crimes - "death" or "bodily harm." Can you imagine anyone being charged with one of these crimes if a collision wasn't involved? It's nonsense to suggest that you could be charged with something like that for 2 cars accelerating quickly up to the speed limit.

Do you really think some asshat cop who think's your exhaust is too loud will charge you with one of those four crimes just because he wants to teach someone with a modded car a lesson? The crown would never prosecute - he'd be laughed out of court, and rightly so.

I'm not saying profiling is right - all I'm saying is if you're not involved in a collision, the odds of you getting charged with one of those four crimes is awfully slim. And even if you are involved in a collision, and even if you are convicted ... it is still up to the judge to determine if street racing was involved.

To suggest that a new sentencing option for judges, on four specific serious crimes involving death or injury, equates to a new option on the street for cops, seriously fails the logic test IMO.

You guys talk about making sure the "guilty" party is the only one that pays -- well this legislation goes you one better -- it can only affect those who have killed or seriously hurt someone -- and it doesn't matter how old you are or what kind of car you're driving. That seems pretty fair to me.

It must be semantics, because I never said anything about being charged with "street racing". Think of it this way, you're on a 2 lane highway where the speed is 100 and you are following someone who is only doing 90, you pull out to pass and accelerate to 120 to complete the pass. All of a sudden the car you are passing starts to accelerate as well (maybe they are an ass and don't want to passed or maybe your starting to pass just woke them out of their daze and they are accelerating to the speed limit) suddenly the unthinkable happens and someone pulls out off a side road onto the highway right in front of you. There is a horrible collision and the passenger in the car you hit is killed.......you are found completely at fault for the accident, and whats worse is that you now suddenly find yourself up on charges for 1) criminal negligence causing death or 4) dangerous driving causing bodily harm and later are convicted. Now to top it all off they claim that you were in a "contest of speed with this other motor vehicle".

ZTWsquared,Jun 15 2006, 03:08 PM Wrote:You guys talk about making sure the "guilty" party is the only one that pays -- well this legislation goes you one better -- it can only affect those who have killed or seriously hurt someone -- and it doesn't matter how old you are or what kind of car you're driving. That seems pretty fair to me.
[right][snapback]193310[/snapback][/right]

If your in the 18-30 age range and driving a highly modified 02 Focus do you really think the judge will look at you exactly the same as someone who is in the 40-60 age range and driving a 2000 Ford Taurus??? It should be, but things don't always happen the way they should. You may not agree with profiling, but please don't pretend it doesn't happen. And you don't think there won't be some judge out there who is just waiting to throw the book at some kid just to show that the "new" legislation is working and being enforced. I know this is a pretty far fetched example, but to blindly hail this is dangerous IMO. Hopefully the only time the new legislation is applied is in ABSOLUTLEY cut & dry cases where there is no question as to the death or harm being caused between vehicles that were genuinely racing.

SVT ZX3,Jun 15 2006, 07:34 PM Wrote:Think of it this way, you're on a 2 lane highway where the speed is 100 and you are following someone who is only doing 90...

I'll concede that we can all think up extreme examples where a person found guilty of one of those crimes, might also be inappropriately deemed to be street racing. I do understand that the judicial system is not perfect.

But the spectre being raised was that of vigilante cops using the "street racing" provisions to get modded cars off the street, and I don't see how your hypothetical failure of the judicial system has any bearing on that.

SVT ZX3,Jun 15 2006, 07:34 PM Wrote:If your in the 18-30 age range and driving a highly modified 02 Focus do you really think the judge will look at you exactly the same as someone who is in the 40-60 age range and driving a 2000 Ford Taurus???

A cop ... no. A judge ... yes.

SVT ZX3,Jun 15 2006, 07:34 PM Wrote:You may not agree with profiling, but please don't pretend it doesn't happen.

The only reason for me to state that I didn't think it was right, is because I do in fact believe it happens. But I also believe it happens almost exclusively with the police and on the street - not in the courtroom.

If you can show me the stats that says young people driving modded cars are punished more frequently or more harshly than other demographics, for the four crimes mentioned, I'm willing to change my view.

SVT ZX3,Jun 15 2006, 07:34 PM Wrote:And you don't think there won't be some judge out there who is just waiting to throw the book at some kid just to show that the "new" legislation is working and being enforced.

Sure I do - without a doubt. But I'm not so cynical to believe that any judge would throw reason and law out the window when they will undoubtedly have plenty of legitimate cases to make their point with.

SVT ZX3,Jun 15 2006, 07:34 PM Wrote:I know this is a pretty far fetched example, but to blindly hail this is dangerous IMO.

It is an extreme example; but in any event, I'm not blindly "hailing" this new legislation - I've done a lot of research on the subject (no offense, but a lot more than you I suspect) and I believe there's a lot more good to come of it than bad.

SVT ZX3,Jun 15 2006, 07:34 PM Wrote:Hopefully the only time the new legislation is applied is in ABSOLUTLEY cut & dry cases where there is no question as to the death or harm being caused between vehicles that were genuinely racing.
[right][snapback]193343[/snapback][/right]

Well put and I agree.

Quote:The vehicles, which were stopped in separate incidences in 2004 and 2005, were substantially modified for street racing.

This is the type of thing that scares the crap out of me. My car is modified for trackdays, not street racing. But I'd love to see how they could guess the difference.

But... I'm reasonably satisfied that this bill isn't a big problem. At least I know that they can't pull me over and throw me in jail for getting a ricer flyby in my track whore.

Still kinda worries me... Say I'm driving on the street, and whatever, there's a terrible accident, maybe not even my fault. Cop takes one look at my car, HE assumes I must have been racing somebody, who "must have fled the scene".

The whole thing goes to court, cop testifies against me, he wins as usual.

For the defenders of this law, I think what scares us more than the law, is just that we have all been witness to police abusing their powers, writing tickets for laws that don't exist anyway (remember Simon?), and we also know what happens when we go to court and it's just us against "the man."

The real stupid thing about all this... as the one cop from Ottawa pointed out, street racing really isn't causing many deaths. Not compared to other things like drinking and driving.

And yet, of the two police officers I know personally, both of them admit to catching people drinking and driving, but not having hurt anybody, let them off after some sober up time in a coffee shop.

There aught to be a law against THAT!!!

Someone pointed out on TSC that you're more likely to be hit by lightning than killed in a street racing accident. Something like 60% more likely to get hit by lightning.

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_1222.aspx

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_1221.aspx

not sure if both sites were posted. I kow the one was for sure

Going by the stats and probabilities of danger and death, these laws (or some harsher version) should be adapted for drunk driving offenses. It's pretty obvious that drunk driving is a bigger problem than street racing, so why should the street racing laws be heavier?

If this bill gets passed, logically it should be followed by a very similar bill for drunk driving.. It's sick how many repeat offenders there are for drinking and driving, now if they had their car crushed (or auctioned off or something) maybe it would drive the message home.

I mean, street racing can be very dangerous but you'd think we could be spending our resources on more pressing issues.

^^ It's the "new" drunk driving, and there's another FATF movie launching today.

"Coincidence this is not... branding, this is"</yoda>

I think you guys are getting all worked up over nothing.

If you don't want this street racing law thrown at you, don't kill someone with your car. Hell, it's something I try to do each and every day. Can't pin anything on me if I don't kill or seriously injure anyone!

Hell if your chances of dying in a street race are less than getting hit by lightning, the chances of you getting pegged with this law is even less.

you know....lets say your on the highway, and you punch it a bit to pass someone, and there is a cop there...."LOOK STREET RACING"...thinking you and the guy your only PASSING are now involved in a street race....YOINK goes the car,....

I don't trust cops..AT ALL.

could be a day where he didnt' get laid, his wife refused him a blowjob, caught his wife in bed with someone that drives the same type of car....

Law is a little to quick to give cops a little TOO much power here.

good idea though..not debating that....