I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag.

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - Printable Version

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I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - naz - 06-05-2007

NOS2Go4Me,Jun 4 2007, 08:52 PM Wrote:Plus I need / want / really want a boost gauge for the interior.

...

I'm also switching to synthetic on the next oil change unless anyone here figures that's a bad idea? I'm just really emulating the "good practices" of my buddy Pete with his 2006 WRX STi as far as maintenance goes.
[right][snapback]240466[/snapback][/right]

i'm gonna jump in with my unsolicated $.02

are the focus gauge cluster still red or yellow needle with green numbers? if you want to match the look of the stock cluster you should take a look at omori gauges.

the one on the right of the steering column (covering the tach) is the one i'm using

[Image: Omori_041.jpg]

as for gauges.. i agree wideband 02 is nice to have.. but that said i don't have any A/F gauge.. i am using EGT and oil pressure as surrogates..

sorry to post bout oil but.. personally i dont think full synth is worth it except for getting extended oil change intervals or unless the factory specifically recommends it. i think a 'heavy duty' dino oil such as 15W40 rotella t ('diesel' engine oil FTMFW) and 3000mi change intervals get the job done at a fraction of the cost..

i'm guessing you will have spent close to $7000 when the dust settles.. (shipping/brokerage, labor, dyno time, gauges)

post pics, this is exciting stuff!!! i always wished i did something like this to my focus

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - NOS2Go4Me - 06-06-2007

I just re-researched the Lentech stuff. Either they've come way down in price or I was misguided quite a while ago.

And I think I need a squeegee.

Naz - thanks for the heads-up man! I like your setup for your gauges.

Also, what's the penalty about running 15W40 vs what we have now (5W20)? Wouldn't the haavier stuff not flow correctly through the engine, starving it of lubrication when it's needed the most (high RPMs / boost)?

Keep the info coming fellas. I'll eat my least fave meal for the rest of the summer (KD... called KCM back in tha day) if I have to in order to get the little red rebel boosted this summer! :lol: :ph34r:

PS - if my wife reads this, she'll know I'm dead serious about turbo'ing the Duratec then. KD only makes its way into our house if I'm not looking and not on the main floor while she's cooking it. Long story, not really to do with her either.

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - naz - 06-07-2007

NOS2Go4Me,Jun 6 2007, 01:04 AM Wrote:Naz - thanks for the heads-up man! I like your setup for your gauges.

Also, what's the penalty about running 15W40 vs what we have now (5W20)? Wouldn't the haavier stuff not flow correctly through the engine, starving it of lubrication when it's needed the most (high RPMs / boost)?

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that isn't my car.. my setup is similar though.. i have that omori boost gauge on the right side of the column (with yellow needle) and a factory dash gauge pod in place of the stock clock that has EGT, oil pressure and a clock. i'll take a pic later

in my owner's manual and factory service manual 5W30 is the 'preferred' oil viscosity (general consensus is that this is for US EPA fuel economy standards.. in other parts of the world the factory oil is apparently thicker) but the also manuals suggest that if the vehicle is driven hard (ie desert conditions, towing) (i infer that bombing through the mountains with your buddies or going on a track day counts as hard driving) you could go all the way up to 20W50

from what i've read lighter oil (5w30) is better for fuel economy, but when the oil heats up (ie hard driving) it shears down.. so like.. a 20 weight, which is apparently too light and no good.. a thicker oil such as 15W40 (esp a 'heavy duty' one designed for stressful applications) is supposedly able to not shear and keep lubricating even when its really hot... so a heavier oil is actually better for high rpm/boost hard driving...

i think a good way bring tech to this issue is to get the oil analyzed and check for wear metals and see how the additive package is holding up. for my car and bike people have used shell rotella T 15W40 dino oil with 3000mi change intervals and gotten good oil analyses back, so that is good enough proof for me (and it doesn't hurt the stuff costs a fraction of full synth)

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - OAC_Sparky - 06-07-2007

5W-20 is the viscosity called for in the Duratecs. It's printed right on the oil cap.

The Duratecs are tighter than the Zetecs. I wouldn't even dream of putting 40 weight in unless it was built for it, unless you enjoy spun bearings.

That's why $20 for 4.4L (a full oil change) 5W20 is a deal. That's like $5 more than a decent dino oil.

So....are you going with the 2.25" or the 2.5"? If they need a 2.5" catback mule on a 2.3L I'm available.

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - naz - 06-07-2007

just cuz its right on the oil cap doesn't mean its the only thing you can put in (or what you should put in for all operating conditions.. i would read the owner's manual or the factory service manual and see what the oils you can use for 'severe service' conditions..

as for the spun bearings. does the 'duratec' motor have tighter clearances than the bearing in a turbo or a sport bike motor? perhaps but i suspect not? all i'm saying is i'd research more before believing the 5W20 sticker on the oil cap is best for turbo focus motor

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

not sure how much tech this guy has.. but it lines up with other stuff i've read elsewhere

about thin oils like 5W20

Quote:So, these "fuel-efficient" oils are quickly becoming the factory recommendation in most cars. It's not at all clear that these new low- viscosity oils lead to the longest engine life, but it is clear that these oils help the car companies meet their CAFE federally- mandated fuel economy standards"

i believe the 'zetec' motor magically changed to a 5W20 oil recommendation for just that reason

and lower down where it talks about diesel oils

Quote:The latest commercial certification is CI-4 Plus, which includes extra protection for high temperature high revving motors. Since it's designed for diesel motors, they don't care about no stinkin' catalytic thingies, and CAFE is a place where you get a cup of joe and a donut. CI-4 Plus differs from CI-4 with higher detergent requirements and better sheer stability.

..

Therefore, diesel oils typically contain half again more detergents, double the dispersants, and a much more expensive and robust VII package than S type oils

where it talks about synthetics, the key advantage is longer change interval, and resistance to sheering (motorcycles are much harder on engine oil because it runs through the tranny also)

so yea.. i'm not conviced for a turbo car or a motorcycle with 3000mi oil change intervals that synth oil is doing anything other than wasting money..

and NOS.. here is my actual gauge setup

[Image: 0606071828.jpg]

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - OAC_Sparky - 06-07-2007

I'm going to say this, not meaning to sound like an ass, but it's going to anyways. So take it how I mean it, with no offense intended.

I've been building engines in a "professional" capacity and a "non-professional" capacity for over 25 years now. I am well aware from working in engine teardown for Ford Windsor of what tolerances the engines are built to. Not counting working on the assembly line, I've literally built over 100-150 engines in my life from the ground up.

Ford engineers don't spec out thin oil because that's the whim of the day. Ever wonder why Duratecs get shiz mileage for the first 5-10k? Because they're built to "oh my god I bent the oil guage" tight from the factory. Comparatively, of course, to older engines. Do you honestly believe Ford would be specing out 5W20 and then offer a 100k warranty on it? CAFE or not, I would say no.

When I put 40 or 50 weight oil in a car, I build it to that spec. Meaning, more clearance (.002-.004" over stock), and a higher volume oil pump with a higher pressure bypass spring. Or you run the risk of oil starvation. 40 is pretty thick stuff. If you were concerned about shearing, I wouldn't go any thicker than 30.

I understand you put great faith in your online sources. And I'll be honest. I personally haven't worked on too many turbo'd cars. But make no mistake, I'm hardly a "backyard mechanic". Unless you've built the rest of the engine with the same specs as the turbo, I would say that the internals of the engine are the most expensive to replace. Bolting on a turbo unit is not the same as building an engine from the ground up.

And we can agree to disagree, that's fine too. Just trying to pass some advice with good intent.

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - NOS2Go4Me - 06-07-2007

I'll start out by saying that if I went with synthetic, I'd run it a tad shorter than the recommend change time for synth, not dino. So if synth is good to 8000-1000KMs, I'll change between 7-9. I'm not changing synth at 5000, even with a turbo. As mentioned, that's pissing money away.

Again, I'll be having a yak with my bud with his STi as to what he runs (dino/synth) and how often he changes it.

I'm just going to talk to FocusSport about what THEY recommend that I run. I've also started talking with US Duratec Turbo owners with the FS kit - I'll start gathering a consensus there. One guy has 18K miles on his kit without a single hiccup and he's not even running the coolant lines. Traps 13.9 with the atx and 210WHP, apparently.

Make no mistake - having a rough idea of how fast I am is nice, and chances are this will boost my drive to "take it to the track"... but at the end of the day, it's about fun. If I have piles more fun with my setup and I've cleared 200WHP... I'm happy. Done.

Naz - I like that boost gauge mounting A LOT. I'll have to attempt something similar for my car.

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - oldeguy - 06-07-2007

On the subject of Synthetic oil, the only things I know is that the synthetic won't break down, like regular oil, so your engine is better protected, if you go a little further than you should without an oil change, and it won't thicken up in the winter, for easier starts.

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - Spinal - 06-08-2007

synthetic oil also has a smaller coefficient of friction, so its more...slippery than conventional oil. so it allows for easier moving, adds a few extra ponies from what i hear.

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - naz - 06-08-2007

OAC_Sparky,Jun 7 2007, 08:39 AM Wrote:Just trying to pass some advice with good intent.
[right][snapback]240788[/snapback][/right]

much appreciated. thanks for the advice!!

EDIT: OAC.. what are your thoughts on why my sube manual recommends 5W30 up to 40C ambient temps, and then 10W40 after that? also, if its used hard it says straight 30 or 40 10w50 20w40 or 20w50 can be used

based on what you are saying (which i believe, since you build motors for a living, i dont) the motor has to be built to run up to 20w50 or else it would seize up.

if heavier oils are recommend for the motor if its run hard, why are they recommending 5w30 in the first place? obviously the freakin thing is going to be run hard....

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - OAC_Sparky - 06-08-2007

naz,Jun 7 2007, 01:13 PM Wrote:
OAC_Sparky,Jun 7 2007, 08:39 AM Wrote:Just trying to pass some advice with good intent.
[right][snapback]240788[/snapback][/right]

much appreciated. thanks for the advice!!

EDIT: OAC.. what are your thoughts on why my sube manual recommends 5W30 up to 40C ambient temps, and then 10W40 after that? also, if its used hard it says straight 30 or 40 10w50 20w40 or 20w50 can be used

based on what you are saying (which i believe, since you build motors for a living, i dont) the motor has to be built to run up to 20w50 or else it would seize up.

if heavier oils are recommend for the motor if its run hard, why are they recommending 5w30 in the first place? obviously the freakin thing is going to be run hard....
[right][snapback]240834[/snapback][/right]

Well, just to be clear, I don't do it for a living anymore; it's one of those things that have fallen by the wayside with my other endeavours in life. As my boys get older and closer to driving age (my oldest is 16 now) that's probably something I'll be revisiting.

The problem with changing oil viscosity is that although the ambient temperature can get high, the internal temperature (all things being equal) doesn't change THAT much (keep in mind, we're talking engine, not turbo). If it did, the car would overheat, right?

So apart from startup, once the temperature inside the engine reaches its operating range, the engine (if the cooling system is working properly) is somewhat moderated under normal use. So for the most part, 30 weight would be fine. Keep in mind that as long as oil pressure is maintained that the oil film will maintain intact. It's not as though the oil will uncontrollably run away from the bearing face.

Understand that when an engine runs, that the oil pump pressurizes the oil galleries, and that oil emerges through the journal bearing face that the tolerance allows the proper formation of an oil film.

Forgive the crudeness:
[Image: oil.jpg]

Now also keep in mind that the variance is exaggerated for clarity.

What happens when the oil gets thicker, the spot where the oil enters gets thicker, but the spot on the opposite side in effect gets thinner -- when it gets to the point that it gets too thin the crank/rod stops riding on an oil film and starts riding the bearing. Then it fails. What we used to do to help avoid this was cross-drill the crank so that you in effect form two oil pockets 180* apart rather than form an eccentric oil pattern.

So, when we wanted to run thicker oil, we would purposely build the engine with a looser tolerance, because, yes, a thicker oil film is preferable to a thin one because it gives you more leeway in a performance application.

So, if your Sube manual calls for thicker oils, then obviously, the engine was built with that tolerance in mind.

I cannot say what Sube's manufacturing process is compared to Ford. But to give you a glimpse of the changes just at Ford, back in the late 80s, bare cast iron blocks were machined, the bores were measured using an air guage, then each bore was sorted into a "group tolerance" of 6-8 grades, then the proper piston size was selected based on that grade. Nowadays, the technique is much tighter: Machined sleeves are pressed into aluminum blocks, the measurement and fitting is all done electronically. Think DOS vs Windows XP. Big difference.

I Decided To Let The Cat Out Of The Bag. - naz - 06-08-2007

thanks for that detail. you rock.