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+--- Thread: What Happened (/showthread.php?tid=10692)
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What Happened - laidman - 02-28-2006
Well, where do I begin. I make my last post sometime around noon yesterday, and now my thread is locked, and I'm not the one responsible for it. What gives!!!!
I started talking about me getting laid off, getting all of your replies, thankyou for all of that. Then it starts on the nasty, by talking about unions...........well I guess we hit a sensitive spot for some people. And as the two or how ever many of you that were arguing about the unions, give it a rest please. Yes unions are good to have in certain situations, but not in others. People like me are probaably split down the middle for being for or against unions. Me I am opposed to them in tool shops, they are unneeded, yes I did just get laid off, would that have helped my situation any who knows. Please can we just be civil about this. Now kiss and make up, or shake hands, or give each other a round or what ever. Just be nice
What Happened - laidman - 02-28-2006
BTW who closed the thread and why. Just curious, even though I already have an Idea
What Happened - hardk0re - 02-28-2006
I closed the thread. It was starting to spin out of control.
Now kids lets behave :)
What Happened - microbunny - 02-28-2006
We have too many mods on this board that jump all over everything...
All this place needs is D and puppet...no offense but its annoying how threads get locked and disappear because one person saw things only their way!
b.s
What Happened - OAC_Sparky - 02-28-2006
laidman,Feb 28 2006, 12:17 AM Wrote:Then it starts on the nasty, by talking about unions...........well I guess we hit a sensitive spot for some people. And as the two or how ever many of you that were arguing about the unions, give it a rest please. Yes unions are good to have in certain situations, but not in others. People like me are probaably split down the middle for being for or against unions. Me I am opposed to them in tool shops, they are unneeded, yes I did just get laid off, would that have helped my situation any who knows. Please can we just be civil about this. Now kiss and make up, or shake hands, or give each other a round or what ever. Just be niceLaidman, it doesn't matter to me what opinion people have about unions. It's like opinions on religion, gays, or what have you. It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to put people down that belong to one. I would have reacted the same if someone was bashing a gay member or a Muslim or Christian member. The assertion of "a Union's skirt" was just plain idiotic.
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I work for Ford, there is a union there. Do I personally need one? Probably not -- at least from the standpoint of being a slacker and needing protection. My work ethic is quite fine, thank you; I work for the most part unsupervised, in fact I often ask supervisors NOT to interfere because it negatively affects job performance.
Is one needed? I believe so. Unions aren't needed when you have good management. While there are a few good managers, generally management at Ford is not good.
Enough said.
I'm sorry about your thread. Some things needed to be said, but it's over now. IMO there was no reason to lock it down, the horses were already out and across the pasture and down the meadow already. ;)
What Happened - Flofocus - 02-28-2006
microbunny,Feb 28 2006, 07:40 AM Wrote:We have too many mods on this board that jump all over everything...
All this place needs is D and puppet...no offense but its annoying how threads get locked and disappear because one person saw things only their way!
b.s
[right][snapback]172563[/snapback][/right]
ummmm. no. We'd have some pretty gay ass threads if that was the case. :P
Kind of like yours. :ph34r:
What Happened - darkpuppet - 02-28-2006
microbunny,Feb 28 2006, 06:40 AM Wrote:We have too many mods on this board that jump all over everything...
All this place needs is D and puppet...no offense but its annoying how threads get locked and disappear because one person saw things only their way!
b.s
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I would have locked the thread if I had stumbled across it.
People want to start flame wars, they can do it in the cage... not by whoring someone else's thread.
What Happened - meford4u - 02-28-2006
microbunny,Feb 28 2006, 06:40 AM Wrote:We have too many mods on this board that jump all over everything...
All this place needs is D and puppet...no offense but its annoying how threads get locked and disappear because one person saw things only their way!
b.s
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i got your back bunny.
i agree
your going to have a big mouth your going to get trampled on. bunny cage or not
What Happened - NOS2Go4Me - 02-28-2006
Apparently my approval of your non-union shop work got the whiny people all riled up.
Apparently they have selective reading skills and missed the part where I said that it's too bad so many smart people are fooled by the thought they need unions.
If everyone did their jobs and employers were fair, there wouldn't be a need for unions. if you're going to dispute that, then you're more fanatical than I thought.
Laidman, offer still stands. If you want your resume dropped at some NON-UNION shops in North Bay with a history of good employment, PM me. Unless I'm banned :rolleyes:
What Happened - Oscar The Grouch - 03-01-2006
Wow looks like i missed all the fun.
Let me put it this way.
Unions are like cops. If society worked fine, we wouldn't need either of them.
However, unions in some instances are a necessary evil to contain a bigger evil.
Unlike in the old days (early 20th century), there are now mechanisms and laws to protect the average worker. Nowadays, unions are needed in some places but they have had a hard time adapting to the new economical environment.
As i see it today, unions are needed in places like china and india really. Why? Cause they are going through the same period as North America did in the 20th century.
Now as for the mining industry, which has many unions on the producer side. The one thing that really bothers me is that when a labour dispute occurrs, there tends to be more "accidents" and damage claims by contractors. Everything occurrs from punctured tires to spray painted company vehicles to random beatings.
From what I hear, and i could be wrong, is that the unions in the mining industry think that contractors basically "take their jobs." Well, in one sense yes. But in most instances, we normally perform the work that either the unions do not want to do (specialized technical work usually or instances where unions don't consider the work safe to them and would require outside assistance) or that labour availability within the union is not available.
Back to the automotive industry. I can understand sparky's opinion on unions, however if unions do not pull back and become more reasonable with concessions, then employers such as Ford, GM and maybe Chrysler will not be sufficiently viable enough to maintain operating status. I'm not sure what the overall concencus is regarding unions believing all that they hear regarding financial statements about their employer, but when a company has "junk" status for their shares, that means that there is trouble.
In any case, I see that companies like Toyota will eventually kill off the competition.
Good question here and maybe one of you can answer it. Within the union terms, if say Ford was bought out by Toyota, could the union be removed in any circumstance?
What if Toyota decided to buy ford and sell off its assets and liquidate?
Anyways that's what I think. I'm not saying unions are bad, but I think the policies and methods within the union are not sustainably viable. I do think that yes, every employee should be compensated for their time with fair pay, benefits, job security and the like. Its really what everybody needs and satisfies some people's wants.
If you have a problem with my opinions, please feel free to PM or post.
I've said this about unions and corporate management alike, I'm not pissed at the people, just the system. :rolleyes:
What Happened - laidman - 03-01-2006
OAC_Sparky,Feb 28 2006, 07:13 AM Wrote:laidman,Feb 28 2006, 12:17 AM Wrote:Then it starts on the nasty, by talking about unions...........well I guess we hit a sensitive spot for some people. And as the two or how ever many of you that were arguing about the unions, give it a rest please. Yes unions are good to have in certain situations, but not in others. People like me are probaably split down the middle for being for or against unions. Me I am opposed to them in tool shops, they are unneeded, yes I did just get laid off, would that have helped my situation any who knows. Please can we just be civil about this. Now kiss and make up, or shake hands, or give each other a round or what ever. Just be niceLaidman, it doesn't matter to me what opinion people have about unions. It's like opinions on religion, gays, or what have you. It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to put people down that belong to one. I would have reacted the same if someone was bashing a gay member or a Muslim or Christian member. The assertion of "a Union's skirt" was just plain idiotic.
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I work for Ford, there is a union there. Do I personally need one? Probably not -- at least from the standpoint of being a slacker and needing protection. My work ethic is quite fine, thank you; I work for the most part unsupervised, in fact I often ask supervisors NOT to interfere because it negatively affects job performance.
Is one needed? I believe so. Unions aren't needed when you have good management. While there are a few good managers, generally management at Ford is not good.
Enough said.
I'm sorry about your thread. Some things needed to be said, but it's over now. IMO there was no reason to lock it down, the horses were already out and across the pasture and down the meadow already. ;)
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MY Dad works at Ford's here in Windsor. He has for 28 years now. He has gone through the recession back in the 80's, and even though all the Windsor plants seem to be going out of business, he keeps preaching the union bid. I'm not saying unions are bad, they do great things, all for the better for the employee. Someone to go to bat for you against the employer. I get that, but when come contract time comes up and and wages are the issue, or hours worked, or production gets thrown into the mix, it gets all crazy. I'm sorry, some of the workers there DO NOT deserve the wages they recieve. $30/hour for a line worker BS. Skill trades yes, they have skills, they have real work, and a thought process more than thighten a bolt, thighten a bolt, thighten a bolt, thighten a bolt.
Iam I happy that they make that kind of money yes, but don't complain that you deserve more money each year. I guess if I was there maybe I may feel the same way. In my business, I work hard, I went to school for my trade, and had bitch and moan to get where I am today. In my trade you can max out at what you do. And unfortunately I am almost there. There are guys who have been at the same wage for the last 2 years. Why??? because they don't want to take that next step, and persue something, and take more of a leadership position.
You know whats stupid, Even though I no longer work there, I wish I get called back. Even though the same things will not change, I want back in. I really enjoy working with the other guys. f*** the boss'. The atmossphere is what I liked the best. Now I have to move on, be that new guy all over again. Dammit I hate having to move.
What Happened - darkpuppet - 03-01-2006
NOS2Go4Me,Feb 28 2006, 08:31 AM Wrote:Apparently my approval of your non-union shop work got the whiny people all riled up.
Apparently they have selective reading skills and missed the part where I said that it's too bad so many smart people are fooled by the thought they need unions.
If everyone did their jobs and employers were fair, there wouldn't be a need for unions. if you're going to dispute that, then you're more fanatical than I thought.
Laidman, offer still stands. If you want your resume dropped at some NON-UNION shops in North Bay with a history of good employment, PM me. Unless I'm banned :rolleyes:
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you'd have less confrontation from others if you withheld the sideways flammatory comments. You wonder why people rip into you? because instead of just stating an opinion, you americanize it with a personal attack to those views not aligned with yours.
Don't be surprised when people start ripping into you.
What Happened - P-51 - 03-01-2006
Quote:Good question here and maybe one of you can answer it. Within the union terms, if say Ford was bought out by Toyota, could the union be removed in any circumstance?
What if Toyota decided to buy ford and sell off its assets and liquidate?
Well, the question is... invalid. I mean, it would never happen. Ever.
Why would Toyota "buy" Ford? There is no value there. There current situation is an example that the management and engineering staff are incapable of designing a good product. The plants are mostly old, and staffed by largely inefficient, unskilled, overpaid workers, and they're sitting on polluted land that carries billions of dollars in risk of environmental cleanup costs.
They'd be better off just doing as they are doing now, and slowly expanding, building new plants in green fields, and hiring new, young, unpoisoned workers, or *stealing* away any current CAW workers who want to have a more satisfying work environment and better chances of long term success, who are ambitious enough to know they don't need a union to protect them.
But to attempt to answer your question more directly, if such a situation were to arrise, the CAW/UAW would block any such sale if it did not allow them to continue their union.
They've already done it with the spinoffs of Visteon and Delphi. They would not allow anybody to "buy" their plants unless the union could continue AND the auto company guaranteed the new company would exist forever.
What Happened - Oscar The Grouch - 03-01-2006
So a slow, long, painful death is pretty much what will happen instead of a quick snap of the neck for the CAW at Ford Plants. Oh well, sobeit. :rolleyes:
What Happened - P-51 - 03-01-2006
Oscar The Grouch,Feb 28 2006, 04:49 PM Wrote:So a slow, long, painful death is pretty much what will happen instead of a quick snap of the neck for the CAW at Ford Plants. Oh well, sobeit. :rolleyes:
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Yes, that's right. There is no hope for them, long term, unless they participate in the change.
And, with the UAW threatening to strike a BANKRUPT employer (Delphi), it becomes pretty obvious that the end is inevitable.
Then, they'll all be out of work, they won't be able to find replacement jobs because they don't have transferrable skills, and they won't have any more "Jobs Bank" or pensions.
What Happened - Oscar The Grouch - 03-01-2006
P-51,Feb 28 2006, 01: Wrote:And, with the UAW threatening to strike a BANKRUPT employer (Delphi), it becomes pretty obvious that the end is inevitable.
Then, they'll all be out of work, they won't be able to find replacement jobs because they don't have transferrable skills, and they won't have any more "Jobs Bank" or pensions.
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TH3 FUTURE IS NEAR!!!
What Happened - ANTHONYD - 03-01-2006
Try and argue waether an SVT is still as superior as it once was....
What Happened - darkpuppet - 03-01-2006
ANTHONYD,Feb 28 2006, 01:15 PM Wrote:Try and argue waether an SVT is still as superior as it once was....
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just to your car? or everything else out on the market? :P
What Happened - Oscar The Grouch - 03-01-2006
ANTHONYD,Feb 28 2006, 02:15 PM Wrote:Try and argue waether an SVT is still as superior as it once was....
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We've went over this before I think. Scooba is the expert.
What Happened - ANTHONYD - 03-01-2006
AGAINST THE MARKET.