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Electrical Renovation question - paolo - 05-23-2010
So over the weekend, I went to the local Aikenheads to buy some new lighting, outlets, etc to replace the old ones, which were a shock hazard. the original builder did a piss poor job of wiring this house, the electrician put the wires into the ez-push terminals in the back instead of using the screws, and left the side terminal screws sticking out, many of them were showing signs of arching due to contact with the metal receptaple box.
Well anyways to make a long story short, I had to re-wire a 3-way light switch, bought new modern decora switches, installed them, but someone wants them to be both in the downward position and the light to be off, but right now, they are both in the down position and the light is on, I copied the original wiring from the older switches, but perhaps those were wired incorrectly too? to simply fix this, what is needed? change both "hot" wires, and leave the "common" wire alone? but do I do this on both or only one switch?
Thanks.
RE: Electrical Renovation question - OAC_Sparky - 05-23-2010
Assuming that the 3-way circuit works properly (both switches can turn on and off the light) and both switches are mounted properly (the label stamped in the steel frame of the switch is "up")...
On ONE switch only swap the runner wires, the two on the silver screws NOT the one on the black screw (common). That will make the light be off when the switches are in opposite positions (one up one down) Also note that the light will be off when both are up or down.
PS. Personally I only use the push-in terminals as a last resort (if I need to make a junction in a receptacle box and there's no room for marrettes, which is rare). Contractors love them because it takes 1/3 of the time to wire the outlet as opposed to curling the wire (properly) and using the screw terminal. House wiring contractors can save 2-3 hours on a typical house using them and their jobs are priced out flat rate ($$ per whole house) so if you're wiring a whole condo or block of houses that can add up to days of labour.
Personally that doesn't matter to me I price out my work based on an hourly rate. I wouldn't shed a tear if they discontinued push-in terminals; I've seen a lot of instances of arcing with them in my time.
RE: Electrical Renovation question - paolo - 05-24-2010
the runner wires are usually red and white, right? i suspect the electrician put the switches upside down, and instead of changing the runner wires...
RE: Electrical Renovation question - OAC_Sparky - 05-24-2010
Do both switches turn the light on and off?
________________________________________
To answer your question -- it depends....
There is more than one way to wire a 3 way switch, and depending on the configuration it is changes what wires you use.
For example, if the power source is straight to the box and the light source is powered from the same utility box (ie. one switch box has 3 separate wires (cables) to it (14-2, 14-2, 14-3) and the other has one (14-3) the runners would be red and white.
If the power is coming from the light fixture box itself (one box has 14-2, 14-3 and the other one 14-3), then the runners are white and red. What is weird is that the power is coming in on the white wire of the 14-2 and goes to the common screw terminal. Ot leaves on the black wire back up to the fixture.
BUT, if the circuit is powered at one end and the other end goes to the light (both switch boxes have two wires, a 14-2 and a 14-3) then the runners are black and red(!) because the white is actually the common.
So, to start, do both switches turn on and off the light?
RE: Electrical Renovation question - 02ztsian - 05-24-2010
Just remove one light switch and turn it upside down with the wiring still attatched. No need to reverse any wiring.
You will get the occasional both switches up and light is off but "someone" can't have everything.
RE: Electrical Renovation question - OAC_Sparky - 05-24-2010
(05-24-2010, 08:33 AM)02ztsian Wrote: Just remove one light switch and turn it upside down with the wiring still attatched. No need to reverse any wiring.
You will get the occasional both switches up and light is off but "someone" can't have everything.
Sure, that's the lazy man's way of doing it. Not the right way. Do you use coat hangers on your mufflers too?
RE: Electrical Renovation question - paolo - 05-24-2010
LMAO about turning the light switch upside down... thats the newfie way of doing it, lol no offence nefcanuck.
RE: Electrical Renovation question - dBlast - 05-24-2010
Quote:So over the weekend, I went to the local Aikenheads to buy some new lighting, outlets, etc to replace the old ones, which were a shock hazard.
Aikenheads was bought out by Home Depot in 1994. Have you had this problem for at least 16 years before you decide to ask for help?
RE: Electrical Renovation question - paolo - 05-24-2010
Why, is this a problem for you? does it piss you off that I still call it Aikenheads? I still call Costco the Price Club too, I still call Metro A&P.
RE: Electrical Renovation question - 02ztsian - 05-24-2010
Call it simple or lazy but if it works what does it matter? Once the cover is on you won't see it-it's not against code, it's just a convenience thing.
And no, no coat hangers or cable ties here!
RE: Electrical Renovation question - OAC_Sparky - 05-25-2010
(05-24-2010, 11:53 PM)02ztsian Wrote: Call it simple or lazy but if it works what does it matter? Once the cover is on you won't see it-it's not against code, it's just a convenience thing.
And no, no coat hangers or cable ties here!
No although it's not against code, an electrical inspector would shake his head too.
When the switches are installed properly it makes it easier to troubleshoot wiring problems without taking the switch out, you only have to take the plate off, the terminals (which sometimes you can't see) can be probed blindly because you know where they're supposed to be.
It also makes it simpler when a non-electrical person replaces the switch, because the natural tendency for people is to install it rightside-up.
I know you're trying to help, but I'm pretty sure that the OP could have figured out to flip the switch himself. He was asking to do it properly. No proper self-respecting tradesman would be that lazy -- you have the switch out already, all you have to do is swap two wires. It's an extra 90 seconds of work tops, it's done right, and you're not twisting the 3 14-3 wires together as you do when you spin the switch.
If it was your post, you would shake your head if someone suggested using bailing wire to hold up your exhaust or to use cinder blocks instead of jackstands, although there is nothing illegal about it. You just know it's not the right way to do it even though it works. Same thing here.
RE: Electrical Renovation question - DD1 - 05-28-2010
well said Sparky
RE: Electrical Renovation question - paolo - 05-28-2010
great post OAC
RE: Electrical Renovation question - imack - 05-29-2010
If you draw out the wiring diagram (which I'm too lazy to do), you will understand that "somebody's" requirements cannot be met. You'll either have both-up and both-down turning the light on, or up-down and down-up turning the light on.
Ivan MacKenzie.
RE: Electrical Renovation question - OAC_Sparky - 05-29-2010
(05-29-2010, 03:40 PM)imack Wrote: If you draw out the wiring diagram (which I'm too lazy to do), you will understand that "somebody's" requirements cannot be met. You'll either have both-up and both-down turning the light on, or up-down and down-up turning the light on.
Ivan MacKenzie.
Most times, a 3-way circuit is considered "wired properly" as long as both switches will turn the light on and off independently. But aesthetically speaking you wire it so that they're both up or both down when the lights are off.
If the lights are on when the switch positions are the same, simply swap the runners (the ones not on the black screw) at ONE switch, not both.