[NOS2Go4Me]

Focus man, Focus.,Apr 8 2009, 06:47 AM Wrote:Or you could be a law abiding citizen and do the speed limit.
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All well and good if the laws truly punished the offenders. Which they don't. Our traffic laws are less about punishment and more about tax grabs. It would also be nice if the laws punished those who can't drive properly to save their ass. But it doesn't.

When was the last time you saw a cop bust someone for a lane change without signalling? A right-hand turn at an intersection (lit or signed) without a signal? A drift-left lane change, no signal? Following too closely? What about a left-hand turn to an improper lane (ala large trucks and buses)? All should be ticketed there - but they rarely, if ever, are.

[ZTWsquared]

NOS2Go4Me,Apr 8 2009, 06:33 AM Wrote:

Focus man, Focus.,Apr 8 2009, 06:47 AM Wrote:Or you could be a law abiding citizen and do the speed limit.
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All well and good if the laws truly punished the offenders. Which they don't. Our traffic laws are less about punishment and more about tax grabs. It would also be nice if the laws punished those who can't drive properly to save their ass. But it doesn't.

When was the last time you saw a cop bust someone for a lane change without signalling? A right-hand turn at an intersection (lit or signed) without a signal? A drift-left lane change, no signal? Following too closely? What about a left-hand turn to an improper lane (ala large trucks and buses)? All should be ticketed there - but they rarely, if ever, are.
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Although to some degree I also believe their is a revenue generation element to our traffic laws, I also believe that for the most part they are indeed about keeping people safe on the roads.

And so to your points above IMO those infractions you list do not statistically represent much of a threat to safety ... they are damned annoying and often selfish but generally the rest of us are well equipped to avoid a collision when the idiots drive like that.

On the other hand, IMO it is speed-related stupidity and distracted driving that poses the greatest threat to safety.

But don't get me wrong - I don't mean outright speed - I mean relative speed, and even more succinctly: relative distance at a specified speed.

When I got my license the 4 series highways were at 70 mph (113kph) and this at a time when some vehicles had front drum brakes (my '62 Mercury panel van for example) and seat belts were just recently made mandatory. So what happened that as cars got better we were forced to reduce the speed limit?

The problem isn't the speed or the technical capability of cars ... the problem is the tailgating and the passing on the right and inappropriate speed for traffic and weather conditions.

There were and are enough idiots on the road today to force lawmakers to do whatever they can to reduce the danger ... and unfortunately there simply isn't the manpower, the equipment, or the investigative techniques to catch tailgaters and convict them. So they resort to enforcing artificially low speed limits.

With today's vehicles there's no reason why the speed limits couldn't safely be 130 or 140 ... but it would take a disciplined, courteous and sane population of drivers to make that work. And we have anything but that.

Today you can be doing 130 in the left lane keeping a sane distance behind the guy in front of you (8 to 10 car lengths) and I can guarantee you that 7 times out of ten the idiot behind you will pass you on the right in order to fill in that space. The result? He's now tailgating the guy you were behind and he's put you in a position where you're tailgating him.

The sane driver's response is to slow down to create space, but now the new idiot behind you wants to do the same thing. The only "solution" is to continously tailgate the car in front, thus preventing the pass on the right, or - what I do - prevent the pass on the right by speeding up ... but that creates it's own set of problems and it also creates a pissed-off idiot now stuck in the lane next to you - neither are really solutions at all and in reality is probably just as dangerous as tailgating. And the constant speeding up and slowing down is also a problem in its own right.

The point I'm making is this ... speed isn't the problem per se, but the only realistic option lawmakers have to mitigate the real problem, is to keep the speed limits low and weed out the idiots that way.

Until we, as a society, truly believe that driving is a privilege and not a right, and effectively teach and enforce the discipline and courtesy that is required to make high speed limits a viable option, IMO we will continue to be saddled with artificially low speed limits. So, in other words never.

[NOS2Go4Me]

ZTWsquared,Apr 8 2009, 08:33 AM Wrote:With today's vehicles there's no reason why the speed limits couldn't safely be 130 or 140 ... but it would take a disciplined, courteous and sane population of drivers to make that work. And we have anything but that.
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You hit the nail on the head with that one, Ken. They give licenses to EVERYONE. It's no longer about demonstrated skill, it's about "how much cash do you have?". If we started removing the people that don't give a rat's ass, then we likely could afford to raise the posted speed limits as those that are observant enough to keep following the rules of the road will likely behave accordingly once the limits are raised.

Get that idiotic soccer mom off the phone and paying attention to where she's going. If you can't have a cellphone conversation where the cell isn't the centre of attention, you're doing it wrong.

And as far as improper lane changes, I've been "almost" sideswiped a number of times because these cretins think it's thier god-given right to drift across two or more lanes of traffic during a turn. Same goes for those who don't signal their lane changes - they're not paying attention! I could be RIGHT NEXT TO THEM and they're coming over anyways as they're looking straight ahead with tunnel vision, not caring who's next to them. I think I posted up about the worst one in recent memory over in Handicapped Parking last year.

IF we get these assholes off the road, and if the cops start actually enforcing ALL of the HTA, not just the sections that are convenient or monetarily worthwhile to them... we can start having a proper European-structured (Germany anyone) driving environment.

I mean, just tell them they can taser the mouthy ones on the side of the road (not that they wouldn't already). Wouldn't that get the OPP onboard?

Just don't drive through Caledonia. Either nothing will get done or too much will get done. If you don't know what I'm talking about, Google Caledonia, ON. You'll see. :ph34r:

[Dimitri]

The problem lies in a few areas:

Policing: I have a few friends in the emergency services, including OPP, scary thing is they are understaffed, where they only (on a given day) have only 6 officers/squad cars patrolling a big strecth of any 400 series highway at any time (Metro Area) where now they are dependant on assistance from Toronto Police to help curb 'enthusiastic' driving. Ever wonder why you see a Metro car on the 401? He's holding that person there till OPP arrives. So most of the lemmings slip by un-noticed, but not by us lol. There is also the fact that some cops just don't care anymore, they see this crap day after day after day. Their will is broken and they just don't give a sh*t anymore. To them it's a paycheque and nothing else, they'll police a situation , only if it occurs in front of them, and sometimes that doesn't help when their "blinders" are on.

But this just one of the problems, this is just a bi-product of what has happened especially over the past couple decades. The rate of new drivers increases dramatically yearly. Start with the route of the problem....THE SYSTEM... Most of us on the board can remember that it only took $15 dollars to get your 365 which was a multiple choice test, and if you passed you got your temp license that same day. You also had the choice to do your final driver's examination the following day. But here's the catch it was done in ENGLISH. You walk into any MTO office nowadays and people are given the choice in whatever language they would like the test, and can get asistance if they are having problems figuring/translating the question posed to them. That's where the problem is, my parents had to write it in English as well as the driver's portion of it. They seemed to do very well and HAD a better understanding of what this province asked of them as opposed to been given a slightly watered down version in Greek lol.

Ok now you can argue and say, we all need some sort of help, and what about new foreigners to our country and what not. YES everyone needs an opportunity to work/play etc etc, thats what makes Canada so multi-cultural, BUT it's a double-edged sword. Take into account the number of "grey-area" driving schools which are not technically "on-the-books' teaching these people how to drive. Yes there may be a better spoken communication in their particular language. BUT if I cannot communicate with you in case of some sort of emergency, how will this problem be resolved. I will give you an example, at work (Pearson International Airport) before we even step out onto the ramp (aircraft movement area) we have to learn a set of hand signals in order to communicate with each other. Even with hearing proection, some days it gets so loud you cannot hear yourself think! I do not want somebody on my crew that I cannot communicate with that would put my life in jeopardy. You fail the class you dont work. Plain and simple.

We have become too lax, and to concerned about hurting people's feelings. Were (as a society) becoming too wishy-washy. Learn the language, write the test, get your license. If people can jump through hoops to get their citizenship and learn about the wonders of Canada and ALL of it's provinces, I'm sure they can put forth the effort to learn about getting behind the wheel of a car.

[Focus man. Focus.]

Dimitri,Apr 8 2009, 10:29 AM Wrote:The problem lies in a few areas:

Policing: I have a few friends in the emergency services, including OPP, scary thing is they are understaffed, where they only (on a given day) have only 6 officers/squad cars patrolling a big strecth of any 400 series highway at any time (Metro Area) where now they are dependant on assistance from Toronto Police to help curb 'enthusiastic' driving. Ever wonder why you see a Metro car on the 401? He's holding that person there till OPP arrives. So most of the lemmings slip by un-noticed, but not by us lol. There is also the fact that some cops just don't care anymore, they see this crap day after day after day. Their will is broken and they just don't give a sh*t anymore. To them it's a paycheque and nothing else, they'll police a situation , only if it occurs in front of them, and sometimes that doesn't help when their "blinders" are on.

But this just one of the problems, this is just a bi-product of what has happened especially over the past couple decades. The rate of new drivers increases dramatically yearly. Start with the route of the problem....THE SYSTEM... Most of us on the board can remember that it only took $15 dollars to get your 365 which was a multiple choice test, and if you passed you got your temp license that same day. You also had the choice to do your final driver's examination the following day. But here's the catch it was done in ENGLISH. You walk into any MTO office nowadays and people are given the choice in whatever language they would like the test, and can get asistance if they are having problems figuring/translating the question posed to them. That's where the problem is, my parents had to write it in English as well as the driver's portion of it. They seemed to do very well and HAD a better understanding of what this province asked of them as opposed to been given a slightly watered down version in Greek lol.

Ok now you can argue and say, we all need some sort of help, and what about new foreigners to our country and what not. YES everyone needs an opportunity to work/play etc etc, thats what makes Canada so multi-cultural, BUT it's a double-edged sword. Take into account the number of "grey-area" driving schools which are not technically "on-the-books' teaching these people how to drive. Yes there may be a better spoken communication in their particular language. BUT if I cannot communicate with you in case of some sort of emergency, how will this problem be resolved. I will give you an example, at work (Pearson International Airport) before we even step out onto the ramp (aircraft movement area) we have to learn a set of hand signals in order to communicate with each other. Even with hearing proection, some days it gets so loud you cannot hear yourself think! I do not want somebody on my crew that I cannot communicate with that would put my life in jeopardy. You fail the class you dont work. Plain and simple.

We have become too lax, and to concerned about hurting people's feelings. Were (as a society) becoming too wishy-washy. Learn the language, write the test, get your license. If people can jump through hoops to get their citizenship and learn about the wonders of Canada and ALL of it's provinces, I'm sure they can put forth the effort to learn about getting behind the wheel of a car.
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I couldn't agree more. The system as a whole is letting socitey down.

[NOS2Go4Me]

Dimitri,Apr 8 2009, 11:29 AM Wrote:Learn the language, write the test, get your license. If people can jump through hoops to get their landed immigrant status and learn about the wonders of Canada and ALL of it's provinces, I'm sure they can put forth the effort to learn about getting behind the wheel of a car.
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EDITED for semi-chronological clarity (and the fact you don't need to be a citizen to get a license, apparently) and QFT.

We bend over backwards WAY TOO MUCH these days. It's Canada, not "half of what your native country once was as you remember it being 50 years ago".

[NefCanuck]

I dunno, I think the problem doesn't stem from where a particular driver comes from, but in how they are taught the rules of the road, the road test given to pass your license and the fact that once you have your license, until you're old & grey or get your ticket yanked by your doctor, you're okay by the MTO unless you are charged and convicted of a driving ofense under the HTA that results in the number of "demerit points" exceeding a number under the HTA.

As far as I can tell, the "dodgier" the school, the dodgier the student they will produce. I've witnessed driver's ed cars from these "schools" pulling stuff that by rights should be haviong teh instructor telling the student to stop the car and take over for the rest of the session, yet nothing gets done :angry:

The actual test? Hell, back when I took the test it was under the MTO directly and it was a friggin' joke. WTF cares if you can parallel park on command? The number of times the average driver has to do this in their driving career I can probably count on two hands with fingers left over.

No the test should be real world and should include a mandatory winter driving component to get your full license. Just because you can drive in June doesn't mean you have the coping skills for January.

Once you have the license? Short of getting it yanked for medical reasons or being a menace on the road, until your old, you're gold.

Why not institute a mandatory retest every ten years until you hit seventy then retest every two years at eighty? I certainly wouldn't complain about having to do that.

Look, where a driver comes from should mean jack, what's important is the training, the maintenance of the skillset and busting the chops of the fools who refuse to obey the law.

THEN we can talk about raising the speed limits IMO.

NefCanuck

[Flofocus]

i always parralel park when i can, cuz i kick ass at it. lol

Agreed about the winter driving courses, and I will go as far as to say we should adopt quebec's winter tire law. i know a lot of you dont agree, but your fawked if you still think winter tires dont make a difference in winter conditions.

[Dimitri]

I agree as well for the winter portion skills set. If I recall there was an episode on Top Gear showcasing the fact that I believe in Sweden, there is a mandatory winter course that has to be completed before issuing a driver's license.

[NOS2Go4Me]

Yup, make it mandatory here as well. Or, make their insurance rates so severe for winter driving unless they receive training that they'll do it anyways!

[Drivesthebeast]

Agreed with the manditory winter testing...I also agree that people should be taught to drive in inclement weather too (heavy rain, wind, etc). I think this would be especially beneficial to new residents of Canada that might have come from a part of the world that doesn't have snow or extreme weather conditions like we sometimes experience here.

On a partially different note, I also hate how driving schools have new drivers practice driving on quiet residential streets, and on secondary highways for the majority of their training. How is doing this going to train them to deal with the stress and concentration required to handle high volume, high-speed traffic in larger urban areas?