[Flofocus]

andrewned,Oct 10 2007, 09:03 AM Wrote:too much power in someone’s hands was never a good idea.

[right][snapback]250563[/snapback][/right]

Thats my problem with the law. It is to much power in people hands that already abuse the power they had before. I've been on the butt end of their BS, so NOBODY tell me it doesnt happen, cuz you are full of s*** if you think/say so.

[zx5power]

haha im gonna see nik on the news being chased on his new pocket bike lol

[darkpuppet]

warning: If you're easily offended, don't bother reading further...you're just not going to like what I have to say

problem: you lose your car for a week if you get caught doing 50KPH over the speedlimit

solution: don't go 50KPH over the speedlimit.

Every 4 point ticket I got, I earned... did I get the ticket at a point where the speed limits changed? yes... is that my fault? hell yeah... I know it's coming up, I saw the signage -- I didn't make the adjustment in time -- that's my fault, not the cop's, or the potential kid that could have darted out into the road.

I see posts where people are saying how great a driver they are, and then, in the same post, are worried that they'll get a speeding ticket because they weren't paying attention. Am I the only one who gets the irony of this?

I'm all for this law. It sucks that we need it, but we need it for all the reasons ztwsquared pointed out. The laws will hopefully start teaching a few things people never learned at Lucky Driving School -- hard lessons to be sure, but it's your responsibility to know the law, and your choice weither you obey it or not.

Don't come complaining if you break the law and get caught.

And the saddest part is that people are still going to think it's their right to do whatever they want on the road, and then get pissed off when they get caught (it's already happened with the 4 people I know who've lost their cars).

[NikiterZTS]

zx5power,Oct 10 2007, 08:16 AM Wrote:haha im gonna see nik on the news being chased on his new pocket bike lol
[right][snapback]250566[/snapback][/right]

probably for doing a wheelie with out a helmet :lol: ....why do u think i bought this thing? so i can out run people haha


but seriosly i've talked to the whole wack of my buddies with bikes and their friends.......and they told me "if i know for sure cop didn't see my plate....not even going to bother to stop"
its too easy to get away on the bike...with these new laws and all people with some what fast bikes are not even going think twice

[oldeguy]

Well "spoken" Darkpuppet,
I've gotten two speeding tickets, but not in the Focus, and both were because I ignored the posted speed limit. But, both were knocked down, mainly, I think, because I was over by 18-19 km/hr. I've done 120 -140, on the 401, just to stay with the flow of traffic. But, I don't go weaving in and out of traffic at those speeds, and pretend I'm in a video game and going 200 km/hr. It's those idiots, and the stupid street racers who need these laws. Personally, it should be 50% greater than the posted speed limit that'll get you screwed.

[P-51]

Quote:because the bottom line is we don't have too many of those on our roads these days and things haven't improved in 4 decades.

That's completely untrue.

The fatality rate PER PASSENGER MILE has fallen quite a bit in the past decades. It's on the order of 1 half, or less.

The only reason why the total death rate has remained stable is because more people driving further than they used to.

Why aren't winter tires MANDATORY, if it was all about safety? This would drastically reduce accidents. While you're at it, ban tires with treadwear ratings over 400.

Why aren't radios and cell phones absolutely BANNED in cars? I'm talking your dash radio, gone.

This would drastically reduce accidents, as a greater proportion of accidents are caused by inattention than by speeding.

Why don't we have mandatory safety inspections every 2 years?

Why is it, that driving in inclement weather, during daylight hours with your headlights off is not a serious offence?

Why don't we have mandatory retesting every 5 years after age 65?

Why not make evasive manoevers mandatory for driver testing?

Why not mandate X-pattern 4 point harnesses as developed by Ford?

Why are police officers tacitly allowed to let off drivers they have been found to be driving drunk?

Why? Because this is NOT about safety. These actions would drasticly reduce accidents, BUT, they would also impact 90% of the people out there. This isn't about safety, this is about the government taking the easy way out, an vilifying a small portion of the population so as to appear to actually be DOING something.

In fact, they have done NOTHING. This will have NO meaningful impact on the fatality rate.

Quote:I see posts where people are saying how great a driver they are, and then, in the same post, are worried that they'll get a speeding ticket because they weren't paying attention. Am I the only one who gets the irony of this?

Clearly you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make. I may miss the sign, because I'm not paying attention, because the speed limit is so low, I'm just enjoying the scenery.

If little Johny runs out, I may hit him, but since I had my cruise set to "only" 15km/h over, well that's "just an accident". It was "unavoidable". However, if I was going fast, I'm a bad, bad man. Nevermind the fact that I truly believe I'm safer when allowed to go a reasonable speed. I pay more attention.

I've been in two accidents in my life. Both of them I was going less than 30 km/h. I wasn't paying attention, and hit somebody who stopped unexpectedly. The first time, I wasn't charged with anything. The second time I was charged with careless, but only "because I have to, but you don't deserve it, so take it to court and it will be dropped." And it was.

Does this make me a bad driver? I DARE you to make that implication. I have driven over 500,000km in 15 years. Often late a night, or in the worst conditions you've ever seen when most people stay home. I have been in two accidents at low speed from not paying attention. I went off the road once in my first winter. I have never had a single vehicle accident. Yet I have been HIT by other drivers on a number of occaisions, and I have proactively prevented accidents that would have been the fault of the other driver on many occaisions. Statistically, this shows that I am safer than the average driver, EVEN THOUGH, I tend to drive fast.

My father was always on my case for horsing around in the winter, using the parking brake, etc... Yet I'm the only one of his three children to NOT write-off a car in the winter.

The question about whether or not to raise limits, or train a generation of better drivers first is a debate over Chicken or the Egg.

Lowering speed limits, only heads in one direction.

[Flofocus]

well put Rob. B)

[darkpuppet]

Rob, I get the point you're trying to make. I also would never accuse you of being a bad driver.

However, for argument's sake, I could say that even if being the best driver doesn't exempt you from the possibility of getting in an accident, how does that give you the right to do 50KPH over?

If a moment of inattentiveness at 30KPH can lead to an accident, how do things improve at 80KPH?

The thing is that you're also a bit of a special case -- you're one of the few truly good drivers. Truly "Good" drivers, like true "Hackers" are usually the ones who don't go around advertising it. People weaving in and out on the road and acting like ass-hats on the road may think they're good drivers, but they're typically not.

Safety on the roads needs to improve. Unfortunately, I'm not even sure that adding safety equipment is going to improve things either. Like SUVs, people believe they're safer they tend to take more risks.

I'm all for winter (and studded) tire -- and oher technologies that increase safety, but they unfortunately don't address that soft, impatient blob chattering away on the cellphone sitting behind the wheel.

This law will do a lot to change the thinking of some people that really need it, and I'm glad for that. The consequences of getting caught by this law are a lot less worse than the tragedies that can go if attitudes aren't checked.

me personally, I should probably remove my racing stripes....

[oldeguy]

Just to add one more factor to the discussion. To those of you who are good, and very good drivers, we have to realize that when the G2 driver doing 100 doesn't look, or miscaculates the speed of you coming up beside them, then that's where you'll get the blame for the accident that'll occur.

[ZTWsquared]

P-51,Oct 10 2007, 12: Wrote:

Quote:because the bottom line is we don't have too many of those on our roads these days and things haven't improved in 4 decades.

That's completely untrue.

It is absolutely true … the vast majority of drivers where I drive are obliviosos … even and perhaps especially the so-called law abiding ones … the have no situational awareness … they know not what a rear-view mirror is … they have no clue why you should always keep to the right and never pass on the right (or force someone else to pass on the right) … they don’t know what turn a signal is for or alternately they don’t know how to turn it off … they don’t know that you need to slow down and leave more space when traction is compromised … they don’t know what to do when faced with an emergency vehicle behind them … they don’t know how to merge two lanes of traffic … they don’t know how to work a four-way stop … they don’t know what “right of way” means … they don’t know how to look more than 10 feet in front of their car … they don’t seem to know that traffic entering a highway will likely be merging to the left … they don’t know that red means stop even though at one time you had an advanced green … then there’s the wannabe Paul Tracys who have most of the faults mentioned above but exhibit their ignorance at much higher speeds. I could go on and on and I know you could too.

The point is our driving public didn’t get this way because the speed limits are too low. They got this way because our standards are woefully too low … any idiot can get a license and do. And conversely raising the speed limits will not improve their skills, knowledge or awareness one iota.

P-51,Oct 10 2007, 12: Wrote:The fatality rate PER PASSENGER MILE has fallen quite a bit in the past decades.  It's on the order of 1 half, or less.

You think this is because drivers are better?! No friggin way … it’s better cars, better technology, legislated behaviour, better emergency services, increased urbanization, better medical skills and equipment and yes … slower speeds due to lower speed limits and increased congestion. In any event, the accident rate is a lot higher and the incidence of people being hurt is way up.

As to the rest of your points I accept their validity. The only reason they aren’t banned or required is the combined theories of picking the “low hanging fruit” first, and the social acceptability of the [insert activity here].

It’s easy to target speeders because it’s easy to make that behaviour anti-social in the eyes of most citizens. Cell phone users not so much.

And there may come a point where listening to the radio in the car is on par with drinking and driving or street racing … but until that happens you can expect there to be no action on that front.

P-51,Oct 10 2007, 12: Wrote:I've been in two accidents in my life.  Both of them I was going less than 30 km/h.  I wasn't paying attention, and hit somebody who stopped unexpectedly.  The first time, I wasn't charged with anything.  The second time I was charged with careless, but only "because I have to, but you don't deserve it, so take it to court and it will be dropped."  And it was.

Does this make me a bad driver?  I DARE you to make that implication.  I have driven over 500,000km in 15 years.

Surely you’re not contending this makes you a good driver, are you? What it makes you is an inattentive driver, or perhaps a driver following too closely … and if you’re claiming it was the low speed limit that “made you do it” then that’s pretty lame in my view.

I’ve been driving since 1969 (almost 40 years for the math challenged) including two summers as a big rig driver as well as a total of 3 years in Britain, Germany and France … total driven is probably in the neighbourhood of almost a million km … I too have had two accidents … one a broadside by a drunk driver going through a red light … and the first one – two weeks after I got my license, a car pulled out of driveway in the rain in front of me and I couldn’t stop. The kid in that car wasn’t belted in and was cut badly despite the low speed I hit them, but the other driver was charged, not me. The only offense I’ve been charged with in all that time is speeding.

Am I a safe driver? I think so … but as a result of those collisions I am a better driver because I now do things a bit differently. Had I know then what I know now I might have avoided those collisions even though they weren’t my fault.

But the most impactful education I received was driving in Britain and Europe and coming to understand the science of moving traffic fast and safe; as well as what it takes to get a drivers license there.

P-51,Oct 10 2007, 12: Wrote:Statistically, this shows that I am safer than the average driver, EVEN THOUGH, I tend to drive fast.

How do you figure this? The majority of drivers, as incompetent as they are, do not have collisions. I’m not saying you’re not safe … but you’re obviously no statistician either.

Statistically the majority of drivers do not have collisions and the majority of drivers are never charged with speeding. Statistically that says drivers that don't speed don't have collisions - statistically.

P-51,Oct 10 2007, 12: Wrote:Lowering speed limits, only heads in one direction.

Right or not, this is irrelevant … we’re discussing the enforcement of existing speed limits, not lowering them.

[naz]

NikiterZTS,Oct 10 2007, 03:09 PM Wrote:but seriosly i've talked to the whole wack of my buddies with bikes and their friends.......and they told me "if i know for sure cop didn't see my plate....not even going to bother to stop"
its too easy to get away on the bike...with these new laws and all people with some what fast bikes are not even going think twice
[right][snapback]250579[/snapback][/right]

can't outrun the radio dude

[andrewned]

That’s a great discussion here. At least I see reasonable arguments :)

Mr. Tech Guru, I’m 100% with you on “In fact, they have done NOTHING. This will have NO meaningful impact on the fatality rate”

Mr. darkpuppet, Speeding is your least concern here. Take your time – read the renewed law. What do you think about new definition of “stunt” for example? Now police can stop you with no reason at all… That's what more dangerous or you can be charged with way more that you've done...

Kids safety – doesn't it start from education?
Isn’t it required by law to be around them all the time before they are 12?
KEEP THEM OFF THE ROAD! that’s safety. If a kid is on a road – charge the parent! Talking about highway speeding – what are kids doing there?

Make licensing serious, not the circus that is currently on.

Get grandma’s retesting more often or at least mandate switching on their hearing/visual/brain aids.

As per tradition here I’ll drop a few words about myself as a driver: I drive for 19 years. Drove extensively in Ukraine,Russia, Germany, France, Austria, Italy, Turkey, UK, Netherlands, USA and now in lovely GTA. I do also ride all those 17 years. Driven lots of crappy and not so crappy cars and seen many bad roads and drivers. Been in a few collisions. One was my fault – I collided with asphalt when fall of my bike on a 20 km/ph turn over some gravel – lesson learned! I do occasionally speed (reasonably, at least I think so) and been caught only with my 8km over.

I do also hate all those crazy ones behaving like jerks on a road! I think that how you drive shows who you are! My opinion about one of my friends changed dramatically after I’ve seen how he drives.

Gentlemen, most likely all those problems with police profiling cars will be yours.
I myself do not even have a car, I ride 20 years old cruiser bike that’s nobody will even suspect in racing. My girlfriend has a Focus, but it is stock and looks just cute.
I do not fight for myself, I fight for principal…

[NikiterZTS]

naz,Oct 10 2007, 09:09 PM Wrote:

NikiterZTS,Oct 10 2007, 03:09 PM Wrote:but seriosly i've talked to the whole wack of my buddies with bikes and their friends.......and they told me "if i know for sure cop didn't see my plate....not even going to bother to stop"
its too easy to get away on the bike...with these new laws and all people with some what fast bikes are not even going think twice
[right][snapback]250579[/snapback][/right]

can't outrun the radio dude
[right][snapback]250648[/snapback][/right]

even then its hard as it is.......i heard some crazy ass stories with witnesses to back it up

[NikiterZTS]

My girlfriend has a Focus, but it is stock and looks just cute.
[right][snapback]250654[/snapback][/right]

:lol: :lol:

[OAC_Sparky]

andrewned,Oct 10 2007, 10:35 PM Wrote:Kids safety – doesn't it start from education?
Isn’t it required by law to be around them all the time before they are 12?
KEEP THEM OFF THE ROAD! that’s safety. If a kid is on a road – charge the parent! Talking about highway speeding – what are kids doing there?
[right][snapback]250654[/snapback][/right]

Since I actually HAVE children, what do you suppose I do? Keep them under lock and key until their 12? Were you kept in a box until you were 12? Do you think that on their 12th birthday they will suddenly find some mystical wisdom that will make them impervious to some f***ing moron doing 80 in a school zone?

Are you implying that adult pedestrians don't get hit crossing the street? What about at a bus stop waiting for a bus when the asshat spins out while he's racing?

The f***tard wannabe racers should slow the f*** down. People crossing the street judge the time they have by figuring the oncoming driver is doing 50, 60, 70, or whatever the limit is maybe plus 20. Nobody figures on people doing 100 in a 50 zone.

To even put forth the implication that it's somehow a parent's or a kid's fault that a car is exceeding the limit in a residential zone is idiotic beyond comprehension.

[andrewned]

OAC_Sparky,Oct 11 2007, 04:38 AM Wrote:Since I actually HAVE children, what do you suppose I do? Keep them under lock and key until their 12? Were you kept in a box until you were 12? Do you think that on their 12th birthday they will suddenly find some mystical wisdom that will make them impervious to some f***ing moron doing 80 in a school zone?

....

To even put forth the implication that it's somehow a parent's or a kid's fault that a car is exceeding the limit in a residential zone is idiotic beyond comprehension.
[right][snapback]250662[/snapback][/right]

Hey hey, nobody told you that it's fine to speed in residential, mr angry parent!
But we talk about safety here also. And most of the times I hear children mentioned as the primary concern.

Parents are responsible for their kids. Car speeding or not - it is danger.

If you want safety - educate your children and k e e p t h t e m o f f t h e r o a d !!! Do your part of safety at least. You have more control of you children than some driver, you can just fine him later but it may be too late...

When I was little I knew exactly what would happen if I approach the road: I would die or I i will get tons of s*** from my dada when we home! The last one was scarier for me that time.

[oldeguy]

andrewned,Oct 11 2007, 08:21 AM Wrote:

OAC_Sparky,Oct 11 2007, 04:38 AM Wrote:Since I actually HAVE children, what do you suppose I do? Keep them under lock and key until their 12? Were you kept in a box until you were 12? Do you think that on their 12th birthday they will suddenly find some mystical wisdom that will make them impervious to some f***ing moron doing 80 in a school zone?

....

To even put forth the implication that it's somehow a parent's or a kid's fault that a car is exceeding the limit in a residential zone is idiotic beyond comprehension.
[right][snapback]250662[/snapback][/right]

Hey hey, nobody told you that it's fine to speed in residential, mr angry parent!
But we talk about safety here also. And most of the times I hear children mentioned as the primary concern.

Parents are responsible for their kids. Car speeding or not - it is danger.

If you want safety - educate your children and k e e p t h t e m o f f t h e r o a d !!! Do your part of safety at least. You have more control of you children than some driver, you can just fine him later but it may be too late...

When I was little I knew exactly what would happen if I approach the road: I would die or I i will get tons of s*** from my dada when we home! The last one was scarier for me that time.
[right][snapback]250667[/snapback][/right]

Yes, parents are responsible to teach their children about the world, including safety, but, how many of us have seen kids totally forget about they are supposed to do, and just do what they want. Heck, we all do it now anyhow. You, me and all drivers from the Grannies and Granpas to the G1 newbie, and everyone in between has to watch out for everyone else. I don't know about you, but, I don't want to have to live with hitting someone because their parents forgot to tell them about all the rules of the road. As someone who has experienced a loved one being hit by a vehicle.... and trust me, he was told about all the road rules, it isn't fun.

[darkpuppet]

andrewned,Oct 10 2007, 10:35 PM Wrote:Mr. darkpuppet, Speeding is your least concern here. Take your time – read the renewed law. What do you think about new definition of “stunt” for example? Now police can stop you with no reason at all… That's what more dangerous or you can be charged with way more that you've done...

What's your problem with the stunting laws again? They clearly define what you can't do...

- donuts and burnouts on the highway is bad -- I understand that.
- keep your wheels on the ground, unless you have a lift axle -- I'm glad that transports won't be charged for lifting their wheels.
- no rushing a left turn on a green -- about friggin time.. how much of a hurry are you in anyways? I've seen pedestrians nearly get clipped at the curb by these asshats.
- no racing
- no carrying bodies in your trunk -- not that the mafia would listen, but at least they get their car towed now.
- no intentionally slowing down traffic -- sweet!!! if traffic is booking along at 30 over the limit, don't f*** with it out of principal. Maybe this will cut down on rolling blockades on the 400 series too.
- drive your car from the driver's seat -- once again, this seems to make sense.

I mean, where's the ambiguity in this law that you're so concerned about? Nothing has changed in the law really -- doing burnouts and powerslides would get you in trouble in the past, and they'll get you in trouble now.

And street racing is still illegal...

All I can see is that people would have a beef that the consequences for breaking already established laws have increased somewhat.

[OAC_Sparky]

andrewned,Oct 11 2007, 08:21 AM Wrote:Hey hey, nobody told you that it's fine to speed in residential, mr angry parent!
But we talk about safety here also. And most of the times I hear children mentioned as the primary concern.[right][snapback]250667[/snapback][/right]

Children should be a primary concern. Do you think otherwise? You're the Mr. Genius who proposes charging parents for kids being on the street. To me, that's deflecting the issue. The title of the thread is about "The New Traffic Law" not "suggestions to parents from people that don't have any".

A child doesn't go on the road to hold a street dance. You usually don't get kids running around on a highway. Generally, they go on the road for the same reasons that adults do. To (a ) cross the road or to (b ) retrieve something. Unfortunately, they have the disadvantage of not having the height to see over cars and be seen, and the experience to know better. There are a few instances where kids will play street hockey. But not on a busy through street where this type of speeding is being targeted.

You can teach your children until you're blue in the face, and all it takes is one mistake to get you killed. Trust me, I'm one of the strictest parents you know, and according to most of my neighbours my kids are the best behaved kids they know. My kids cross at traffic lights where there are lights. A person doing 80 in a 50 zone is less likely to stop at the light they're crossing at. There is a reason why there is a 50kph limit in city limits. For everyone's safety including kids. It's not just kids running out from between parked cars. It's to protect people, including kids, that are obeying the law.

The problem is, people don't give a s*** and go whatever speed they want. I live on a residential street where I see it. It's not anyone that actually lives on the street. It's usually some idiot contractor rushing to his next job. People use the main street near mine to get around a busy corner. Two months ago police clocked a guy doing 96 in my area. Every time they set up a speedtrap they nail at least a dozen speeders.

So if you want to know why I'm "mr angry parent" when this is brought up, now you know.

[NefCanuck]

Frankly I'm sitting here just stunned that there are people opposed to people doing 50+ over the posted limit getting nailed to the wall.

I'm sorry but unless you drive a car that has you in a bubble there is no friggin way that you are driving 50 KM/H over a POSTED speed limit and not knowing what you are doing <_<

As to the rest of the law, stopping idiotic behaviour on the streets requires more than a law sadly, its going to require enforcement and that's where (pardon the pun) "The rubber meets the road"

NefCanuck