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Frost__2001 · 08-21-2005, 02:25 PM

News
Ford product chief says building more hybrid vehicles is 'the right thing to do'
JAMES B. TREECE | Automotive News
Posted Date: 8/18/05
TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - Ford Motor Co. is committed to hybrid vehicles, says Phil Martens.

Martens, Ford Motor Co.'s group vice president for product creation, also endorsed combining hybrids with other advanced powertrain technologies and said Ford would use hybrids to boost fuel economy rather than performance.

"Hybrids generate terrific interest in the marketplace worldwide. Building hybrids also meets our internal mandate for sustainability," he said this month at an industry conference here. "Building hybrids is the right thing to do."

The Ford Fusion hybrid, which is scheduled to arrive in 2008, will be a "second-generation" hybrid, Martens said.

In the near term, he said, "we'd like a hybrid powerpack system we could use in multiple vehicles around the world with Ford brands."

Martens said Ford's planned hybrids would focus on improving fuel economy rather than boosting performance. "We think that's why people in general are buying hybrids," he said. "We don't have plans to do performance hybrids per se."

Martens said many people want a mid-sized or large sedan "that gets more than 40 mpg."

He predicted "an exploratory convergence of technologies" over the next five to seven years. This could combine, say, a diesel-electric hybrid with a turbocharger. With such a combination, Martens said, "you're approaching what a fuel cell does at a fraction of the cost."

Alternatively, direct-injection gasoline engines, used in hybrids with turbochargers, could provide "similar fuel economy, performance and emissions as diesels," he said. "But you can do it at lower cost."

Developing hybrids also changes Ford's business practices, Martens said.

"You have to do things differently," he said. "Software becomes a paramount measure for success. You have to do product development in a different cadence.

"You have to work with suppliers more closely than ever before. That is a tremendous opportunity to change the relationship."

Ford wants to work with "two or three long-term suppliers" to develop the technology base, he said.

Ford employees like working on hybrid technology, Martens said. "People want to be part of the hybrid team."

But the shortage of qualified engineers capable of developing hybrids brings other problems.

"There's a lot of headhunting going on," Martens said. "It's as bad as I've ever seen it."

FocusGuy7476 · 08-22-2005, 02:08 AM

wonder if ford will develop its owns hybrid technology or just continune to use the same tech from toyota.

scoobasteve · 08-24-2005, 12:39 AM

How much does a battery cost for a hybrid again? 3k? 4k?

Frost__2001 · 08-24-2005, 10:42 AM

I donno.......... but it would be cool to see a few Hybrid Foci, or SUVs by ford out there other then just the escape.

Kool_ZX3 · (This post was last modified: 08-24-2005, 10:55 AM by Kool_ZX3.)

FocusGuy7476,Aug 21 2005, 12:08 PM Wrote:wonder if ford will develop its owns hybrid technology or just continune to use the same tech from toyota.
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Ford does have it's own hybrid technology, the tech in the escape hybrid is Ford not toyota. Ford licensed some of toyota's patent's b/c the ford tech was close to toyota's tech so to avoid patent and legal issues ford bought lincenses on them. Common practive but it is ford technology in the escape hybrid and ford is workin still workin on it to make the fusion hybrid,and the other models on their way even better.

OAC_Sparky · (This post was last modified: 08-24-2005, 11:17 AM by OAC_Sparky.)

FocusGuy7476,Aug 21 2005, 11:08 AM Wrote:wonder if ford will develop its owns hybrid technology or just continune to use the same tech from toyota.
[right][snapback]134503[/snapback][/right]

Please educate yourself on the subject before making erroneous blanket statements like that.

First off, Ford doesn't use Toyota hybrid technology. That is a misnomer perpetuated by the media.

Ford's hybrid technology was developed on its own. Certain components that are common to Toyota and Ford's system were licensed, only because ( a ) the technologies were similar on paper and licensing the tech is preferable to a legal challenge that would hold up product release, and ( b ) there are components that both Toyota and Ford BOTH buy from third-party vendors (ie. battery packs developed and sold by (IIRC)Toshiba, that were not developed by Ford NOR Toyota) but Toyota "licensed" the tech first (with the Prius) and subsequent developers have to come to them.

Were you aware that Toyota licenses diesel technology from Ford? And the cost of those licenses is 5X the value of the licenses Ford bought from Toyota for hybrid technology?

Probably not, because the media loves to perpetuate how domestic manufacturers are vastly inferior.

scoobasteve,Aug 23 2005, 09:39 AM Wrote:How much does a battery cost for a hybrid again?Â 3k? 4k?
[right][snapback]134890[/snapback][/right]

At present, estimated are more into the $8-$10 G range. It is too early to say because most hybrids are still under warranty; by the time the 8ish year lifespan is kaput the cost will vary depending on market forces. Meaning, right now because manufacturers (like Toyota and Ford) have cornered the manufacturing capacity (ie. battery manufacturing capacity is what is limiting sales, not demand), right now it would be a very expensive time to replace a battery, if you could procure a replacement battery at all.

Which brings to mind the argument against hybrids. By weighing the difference in costs at initial purchase, and maintenance, and the fact that hybrids are almost always LESS efficient on the highway, gas would have to hit $2.00 to $2.50 a litre to be a real financial investment.

The only real world benefit is strictly city driving and environmental because of emmisions. Even the latter is suspect because nobody knows at present the recycleability of the spent batteries.

Frost__2001,Aug 23 2005, 07:42 PM Wrote:I donno.......... but it would be cool to see a few Hybrid Foci, or SUVs by ford out there other then just the escape.
[right][snapback]135053[/snapback][/right]

From what I've heard, there will be a hybrid version of the Ford Edge we are to be building in Oakville.

Kool_ZX3 · 08-24-2005, 11:36 AM

OAC_Sparky,Aug 23 2005, 09:13 PM Wrote:
FocusGuy7476,Aug 21 2005, 11:08 AM Wrote:wonder if ford will develop its owns hybrid technology or just continune to use the same tech from toyota.
[right][snapback]134503[/snapback][/right]
Please educate yourself on the subject before making erroneous blanket statements like that.

First off, Ford doesn't use Toyota hybrid technology. That is a misnomer perpetuated by the media.

Ford's hybrid technology was developed on its own. Certain components that are common to Toyota and Ford's system were licensed, only because ( a ) the technologies were similar on paper and licensing the tech is preferable to a legal challenge that would hold up product release, and ( b ) there are components that both Toyota and Ford BOTH buy from third-party vendors (ie. battery packs developed and sold by (IIRC)Toshiba, that were not developed by Ford NOR Toyota) but Toyota "licensed" the tech first (with the Prius) and subsequent developers have to come to them.

Were you aware that Toyota licenses diesel technology from Ford? And the cost of those licenses is 5X the value of the licenses Ford bought from Toyota for hybrid technology?

Probably not, because the media loves to perpetuate how domestic manufacturers are vastly inferior.

scoobasteve,Aug 23 2005, 09:39 AM Wrote:How much does a battery cost for a hybrid again?Â 3k? 4k?
[right][snapback]134890[/snapback][/right]
At present, estimated are more into the $8-$10 G range. It is too early to say because most hybrids are still under warranty; by the time the 8ish year lifespan is kaput the cost will vary depending on market forces. Meaning, right now because manufacturers (like Toyota and Ford) have cornered the manufacturing capacity (ie. battery manufacturing capacity is what is limiting sales, not demand), right now it would be a very expensive time to replace a battery, if you could procure a replacement battery at all.

Which brings to mind the argument against hybrids. By weighing the difference in costs at initial purchase, and maintenance, and the fact that hybrids are almost always LESS efficient on the highway, gas would have to hit $2.00 to $2.50 a litre to be a real financial investment.

The only real world benefit is strictly city driving and environmental because of emmisions. Even the latter is suspect because nobody knows at present the recycleability of the spent batteries.

Frost__2001,Aug 23 2005, 07:42 PM Wrote:I donno.......... but it would be cool to see a few Hybrid Foci, or SUVs by ford out there other then just the escape.
[right][snapback]135053[/snapback][/right]
From what I've heard, there will be a hybrid version of the Ford Edge we are to be building in Oakville.
[right][snapback]135065[/snapback][/right]

:D I was hoping u were going to chime in :lol:

OAC_Sparky · 08-24-2005, 02:22 PM

Kool_ZX3,Aug 23 2005, 08:36 PM Wrote::D I was hoping u were going to chime in  :lol:
[right][snapback]135070[/snapback][/right]

lol, just noticed your post now. We must've been typing at the same time.

Hats off to you, the fastest typist won. :lol:

Kool_ZX3 · 08-24-2005, 02:31 PM

OAC_Sparky,Aug 24 2005, 12:22 AM Wrote:
Kool_ZX3,Aug 23 2005, 08:36 PM Wrote::D I was hoping u were going to chime inÂ   :lol:
[right][snapback]135070[/snapback][/right]
lol, just noticed your post now. We must've been typing at the same time.

Hats off to you, the fastest typist won. :lol:
[right][snapback]135112[/snapback][/right]

Mine was pretty basic though, someone has to show the world ford isn't dumb as bricks and honda and toyota arn't the greatest thing since sliced bread :D

scoobasteve · 08-25-2005, 12:14 AM

8-10g's for a battery... jesus! why would you even bother with a hybrid.

OAC_Sparky · (This post was last modified: 08-25-2005, 03:38 AM by OAC_Sparky.)

scoobasteve,Aug 24 2005, 09:14 AM Wrote:8-10g's for a battery... jesus! why would you even bother with a hybrid.
[right][snapback]135179[/snapback][/right]

Just like any vehicle -- how long does the average new car buyer keep their car? It'll be the poor schmuck that buys one used that will be taking the risk.

The $8-10G is a current estimate. Just like LiON and NiCAD batteries, they should come down in price (at least from a production standpoint), but like I said, market demand will keep the price inflated.

There's still a market for hybrd technology. Local delivery, taxi cabs, etc. which give the hybrids a chance to reach their potential will benefit.

When a hybrid is at highway speed the battery can't keep up, so the ICE needs to run all the time, and since you're lugging around a huge battery pack as well it becomes less efficient.

So any usage where the driving is mainly city miles, coupled with businesses that can write off things like vehicle purchases and maintenance costs can come out ahead. But not the average Joe Commuter. He's still better (at this point) buying a normal ICE vehicle.

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