[ZTWsquared]

If you accept that strategically and militarily the U.S. has already achieved their objectives in Iraq (regime change, security from WMD) announced as the end of major combat operations, then what's keeping them there?

3 things IMO ... their need to continue working towards the publicly stated objective of "freedom" for the Iraqi people, their responsibilities under the Geneva Convention with respect to an occupying army's duty to protect citizenry (ironic, I know), and of course the American/Bush need to "win" a battle in the fight against terrorism.

So what's it going to take to get the American's to leave? Wouldn't the institution of a proper civil authority and reasonable safety and security for Iraqi citizens be their cue to go?

So why would any sane Iraqi intent on having the Americans out of their country even show a weapon, let alone kill Americans and Iraqi civilians? Wouldn't an Iraqi intent on freeing his country of Americans do what a lot of Iraqis are already doing and try to rebuild the infrastructure or join the police force? And yet it is these people who seem to be the targets of the insurgents.

I think we are being pretty naive if we think that everyone bearing arms in Iraq is either a malicious American or a noble Iraqi freedom fighter.

In a part of the world where lawlessness and corruption is far more the norm than here, I think the safer bet is this: there are significant numbers of armed Iraqis who are indeed just criminals ... people and organizations who are thriving in the chaos and working to keep it chaotic ... and the average American soldier in Iraq just wants to survive, keep out of trouble and get the hell home.

Did the Americans make a huge mistake in invading? Yes ... and I've said so from the beginning. NOS's characterization of Pandora's box was right on. They went in for the wrong reasons and at best with the wrong intel and at worst, ignoring the right intel. And their so-called exit plan assumed an awful lot that simply wasn't reasonable to assume.

Was their invasion illegal? Without explicit U.N. sanction I think it was. Is that academic now? Yes.

Are horrific numbers of innocent Iraqi's dying every day? Yes ... 1 is too many ... but the Americans are not the only ones killing Iraqis ... Iraqis are killing more Iraqis than coalition soldiers ... and if the Americans left tomorrow the killing would continue unabated and probably even escalate.

And if you think otherwise than you probably don't know the history of this country / region. Saddam alone was the cause of death for hundreds of thousands of Iraqis (he basically flushed a whole generation of young men down the toilet) and that doesn't even consider the quietly bloody rule of the Hashemites, or the overthrow of Qassim, the bloody rule of the brothers Arif or even their overthrow at the hands of the Ba'athists.

Speaking of which ... the only people in Iraq who will miss Saddam are the hardcore Ba'athists and the wealthy Sunni's they co-opted. Do the Iraqis want the Americans out? Yes, with a vengeance ... but that doesn't mean they miss Saddam.

The U.N. probably does have a role to play but it won't be until a relatively toothless force will be able to survive on its own ... and I don't think that will be for a while. At its best the U.N. can apply the political pressure needed to get all countries aligned in working towards a safe Iraq. We haven't even discussed how the Saudi's were complicit in the American plans to invade ... but that's for another thread.

As ironic as this seems, I think the only chance the average Iraqi has now for a decent future is in the Americans' willingness to stay the course in helping to build Iraqi security forces that on their own can take on the insurgents (whatever their motives) and keep the streets there relatively safe.

There are a lot of people in Iraq killing people and blowing things up to prevent that from happening. You may refuse to call them insurgents if you want ... but I don't know how you could even consider calling them freedom fighters.

The nobility in Iraq IMO is in the average guy or gal risking their life to swing a pickaxe or man a firehose, drive an ambulance ... and especially the guy willing to sign up to be an Iraqi policeman.

Just my .02.