Hi, Guest
06-18-2004, 12:26 PM
and rob knows i'll hit every point.
My issue with FC is... they don't seem to do any actual engineering. They just figure out how to *build* a part, and don't actually engineer it.
no you are right, but the same can be said for alot of companies infact most aftermarket companies. they take the part, and they build it, then test it and adjust and tweak it till it works and puts down good numbers. being an engineer you should know this but spending thousands of hours in R&D time only make the parts cost more. i don't know about you but paying $500+ for a TB for a $15,000 car is a bit much for 99% of the people out there. sure if you are rolling in a $50k car then it's a bit more reasonable.
FS doesn't engineer their parts any more than FC does.
hell What does FS actually make other than a Intake, Header, flex and exhaust?
and exactly what company making focus parts, bar Esslinger, "engineers" their parts?
The welding is just one perfect example of that.
Can they tell us why the headers are cracking? Why not? What filler material are they using for the welding? Is it automated, or manual? If it's automated, who set up the robot? What are their qualifications? If manually welded? Where, and what are their certifications? If the headers require bracing, why didn't they brace them? The stock header is braced.
like anything, problems arise with all parts regaurdless of how much testing is done on them. look at the focus, how many recalls were there in the first few years? why is it ford couldn't figure that out with millions of dollars at thier disposal before they released the car? this is ford we are talking about, a billion dollar company world wide, FC is a small private company.
i'm not 100% but i believe the problem was with the filler not being a thick enough beed and not setup propperly. but like ford, FC has taken care of anyone with a cracked header. hell they have even warrentied a few SS AutoChrome knock offs to make people happy.
FC, like FS and many other companies contract out work so sometimes a batch they get made for them can have issues. being that this happens FC has always stood behind their products if the customer has given them the chance to fix it.
It's not just the headers either. The control arms are scary. The control arms seem to be fracturing in the heat affected zone of the base tubing. It's not even the weld that is breaking, it's the HAZ. What alloy tubing are they using for the arms? What filler metal? What welding process, with the same questions as above. How did they determine if the arms needed a post weld heat treat to relieve the HAZ?
Are they aware that they are using rod-ends in a manner that is commonly accepted in the race engineering community as being very bad? It's been known for about 20 years at least, that rod-ends should not be loaded in bending.
it's a well known fact that the control arms are not the best design for serious use. something that is not well known is that FC only had 20 sets made and when i was at FC on may 15th dave told me that they have only sold 8 sets.
i'm not the guy at FC that designs or makes the parts so i cannot answer your structural question
It doesn't mean nobody ever does it, but just about everybody knows you shouldn't. It's another indicator of poor engineering.
once again, the idea behind pretty much everything for the focus is to be "COST SENSITIVE"
out of all the Automotive communities(import/domestic) the Focus community has the reputation for being the cheapest and hardest sell. so if someone is going to build a propperly engineered control arm designed to handle everything you could possibly throw at it, it's going to cost upwards of $1-2000. that company would be lucky to sell 2 of those.
seriously what do you want?
GaryK had 20-30 track days and driving schools on his FC arms before it finally broke on an OFF.
that's a pretty good deal for under $300usd
if you are racing YOU HAVE TO EXPECT TO BREAK PARTS!!!!!
if you cannot deal with that or wont accept it, then don't race.
if you want a propperly engineered part then don't bitch about it costing 5x more than a lower end part.
Who designed the cam on the throttle body? Why does it open so fast at initial throttle input? Those things had WAY more issues than what you are suggesting, but I didn't follow them as closely.
FC uses a machine shop that Dennis has been using for years. the FC TB was actually based directly off the stock TB and uses much of the geometry of the stock unit. not "ideal" i know but name another option out there?
Basically, I'd never buy anything from them because they are typical of most aftermarket companies. They have no idea how to design something other than "making it fit", and sending the job out to some shop, getting the parts, and throwing them into a box (with or without packaging...)
well, rob, you cannot please everyone all of the time.
you are one of those rare cases that will apparently pay $500+ for a propperly engineered TB or $2000 for a set of control arms. and that's great!
Stick to your guns!
but sadly most of the people out there modifying the focus do not have that luxury. and because of that, the companies out there have to build parts to suit the price-point the car falls into.
we are talking about an economy car here. this is not a $150k Benz where the owner can deal with $2000 for a set of rear tires let alone $15k for a Supercharger kit or $5000 for a suspension package.
if what FC is doing is soooo horrible, as you are trying to make it out to be, then why has no other company stepped up to the plate to set the new industry standard? Where is FS? where is anyone?
the bigger question, why does FC still sell more parts day in and day out than any other focus company?
the parts work.
they show gains
they have great customer service, just nobody has the brains to call them up and talk to them before going onto FJ and bitching about it.
They were run out of the Mustang market for all these same reasons.
funny, they still seem to get alot of mustang business?
My issue with FC is... they don't seem to do any actual engineering. They just figure out how to *build* a part, and don't actually engineer it.
no you are right, but the same can be said for alot of companies infact most aftermarket companies. they take the part, and they build it, then test it and adjust and tweak it till it works and puts down good numbers. being an engineer you should know this but spending thousands of hours in R&D time only make the parts cost more. i don't know about you but paying $500+ for a TB for a $15,000 car is a bit much for 99% of the people out there. sure if you are rolling in a $50k car then it's a bit more reasonable.
FS doesn't engineer their parts any more than FC does.
hell What does FS actually make other than a Intake, Header, flex and exhaust?
and exactly what company making focus parts, bar Esslinger, "engineers" their parts?
The welding is just one perfect example of that.
Can they tell us why the headers are cracking? Why not? What filler material are they using for the welding? Is it automated, or manual? If it's automated, who set up the robot? What are their qualifications? If manually welded? Where, and what are their certifications? If the headers require bracing, why didn't they brace them? The stock header is braced.
like anything, problems arise with all parts regaurdless of how much testing is done on them. look at the focus, how many recalls were there in the first few years? why is it ford couldn't figure that out with millions of dollars at thier disposal before they released the car? this is ford we are talking about, a billion dollar company world wide, FC is a small private company.
i'm not 100% but i believe the problem was with the filler not being a thick enough beed and not setup propperly. but like ford, FC has taken care of anyone with a cracked header. hell they have even warrentied a few SS AutoChrome knock offs to make people happy.
FC, like FS and many other companies contract out work so sometimes a batch they get made for them can have issues. being that this happens FC has always stood behind their products if the customer has given them the chance to fix it.
It's not just the headers either. The control arms are scary. The control arms seem to be fracturing in the heat affected zone of the base tubing. It's not even the weld that is breaking, it's the HAZ. What alloy tubing are they using for the arms? What filler metal? What welding process, with the same questions as above. How did they determine if the arms needed a post weld heat treat to relieve the HAZ?
Are they aware that they are using rod-ends in a manner that is commonly accepted in the race engineering community as being very bad? It's been known for about 20 years at least, that rod-ends should not be loaded in bending.
it's a well known fact that the control arms are not the best design for serious use. something that is not well known is that FC only had 20 sets made and when i was at FC on may 15th dave told me that they have only sold 8 sets.
i'm not the guy at FC that designs or makes the parts so i cannot answer your structural question
It doesn't mean nobody ever does it, but just about everybody knows you shouldn't. It's another indicator of poor engineering.
once again, the idea behind pretty much everything for the focus is to be "COST SENSITIVE"
out of all the Automotive communities(import/domestic) the Focus community has the reputation for being the cheapest and hardest sell. so if someone is going to build a propperly engineered control arm designed to handle everything you could possibly throw at it, it's going to cost upwards of $1-2000. that company would be lucky to sell 2 of those.
seriously what do you want?
GaryK had 20-30 track days and driving schools on his FC arms before it finally broke on an OFF.
that's a pretty good deal for under $300usd
if you are racing YOU HAVE TO EXPECT TO BREAK PARTS!!!!!
if you cannot deal with that or wont accept it, then don't race.
if you want a propperly engineered part then don't bitch about it costing 5x more than a lower end part.
Who designed the cam on the throttle body? Why does it open so fast at initial throttle input? Those things had WAY more issues than what you are suggesting, but I didn't follow them as closely.
FC uses a machine shop that Dennis has been using for years. the FC TB was actually based directly off the stock TB and uses much of the geometry of the stock unit. not "ideal" i know but name another option out there?
Basically, I'd never buy anything from them because they are typical of most aftermarket companies. They have no idea how to design something other than "making it fit", and sending the job out to some shop, getting the parts, and throwing them into a box (with or without packaging...)
well, rob, you cannot please everyone all of the time.
you are one of those rare cases that will apparently pay $500+ for a propperly engineered TB or $2000 for a set of control arms. and that's great!
Stick to your guns!
but sadly most of the people out there modifying the focus do not have that luxury. and because of that, the companies out there have to build parts to suit the price-point the car falls into.
we are talking about an economy car here. this is not a $150k Benz where the owner can deal with $2000 for a set of rear tires let alone $15k for a Supercharger kit or $5000 for a suspension package.
if what FC is doing is soooo horrible, as you are trying to make it out to be, then why has no other company stepped up to the plate to set the new industry standard? Where is FS? where is anyone?
the bigger question, why does FC still sell more parts day in and day out than any other focus company?
the parts work.
they show gains
they have great customer service, just nobody has the brains to call them up and talk to them before going onto FJ and bitching about it.
They were run out of the Mustang market for all these same reasons.
funny, they still seem to get alot of mustang business?