[habmann]

ZTWsquared,Mar 27 2006, 05:40 PM Wrote:I thought twice about writing this (I was going to post it in the “Boycott Ford” thread, but it is now locked) but I decided to post it because I enjoy a lot of what you write and value much of what you offer.

Unfortunately a lot of otherwise interesting and controversial posts seem to degenerate into name calling and the occasionally entertaining but thug-like personal attack. And although my comments do apply to others IMO, I must be honest in saying that you in particular inspired this post. My reason for stating them here is not to flame, but instead to impart some insight with the hope that we can all communicate just a bit better in future threads.

Let me start by saying that I consider myself to be a fair, balanced and open minded person more than capable of looking at both sides, cutting through the crap and seeing what’s really there; and I do this for a living. And because you appear to be a decent writer, I feel that I can make reasonable judgements about you; at least on the basis of what you have written.

For example, in the Boycott Ford thread you make a few comments about this being a “fact based” discussion and then conclude with the notion that no one is listening to or understanding your facts, and that for some personal reason everyone is arguing against you – hence the “deck is stacked” comment – indicating you feel that you have an unfair disadvantage in the discussion based on something personal.

Indeed you do have a disadvantage (at least in that thread), but it is hardly unfair … much the same as bringing a knife to a gun fight is unfair. I reread the entire thread – and my conclusion is this: you entered what you yourself proclaimed was a fact-based discussion without actually presenting any facts.

You stated your opinion in a way that made it pretty clear how you felt – but you didn’t support your opinion with any facts or even any representation of facts; you simply repeated your opinion in a variety of different ways. All well and good so far.

But when others pointed out what they felt were serious flaws and possibly hypocrisy in your logic, and supported these opinions with facts, you instead seemed to take this as a personal affront. Rather than dispute the facts or give your alternate intrepretation of them, you attacked the motives of the other.

In a rare bit of irony (although you probably didn’t know you were doing this) IMO you were claiming “argumentum ad hominem” against you, while at the same time you were guilty of this fallacy yourself.

And for those of you who long ago forgot Philosophy 101, a fallacy is a recognized mistake in reasoning, and argumentum ad hominem is the fallacy of attacking the person instead of attacking their argument; a classic example is “you couldn’t possibly be right because you attended special ed classes.”

Although it is a fine line, there is a distinction between saying “You’re wrong and you’re an idiot because of this fact, this fact and this line of reasoning” and “You’re wrong because you’re an idiot.” As an argument the first is acceptable (barely) ... the second isn’t.

So in conclusion please don’t take my comments as a personal attack, and don’t take my opinion as a reason for leaving the site – I am merely trying to articulate why I think a lot of otherwise interesting and controversial posts degenerate into name calling, with the hope that it can be avoided in the future.
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Very well written. I think every member should keep these things in mind.