[P-51]

That's not a bad idea, if the Pro-M physically replaces the stocker. Plus, I think an extra $25 and they give you a flow graph, so the transfer function should be a no-brainer.

[naz]

i vote proM

less hacking to fit = good in my eyes because i suck at that haha

[darkpuppet]

yeah, usually when people talk pro-m, they say 70mm MAF... that's why I didn't consider it initially... but now I know there's a 65mm that is nearly a direct replacement, I'm very tempted to take that route instead of tooling around with multi-diameter MAFs.

That and most folks I talked to recommended the Ford MAFs for simplicity (yeah right) when using with SCT.

But with datalogging software, flowsheet, and a direct replacement MAF... could be the way to go for attempt #2..

[Jays2000ZX3]

Umm, I would have expected more then ~190whp with exhaust..no?

Still, glad to hear things are finallygoing better for you.

and BTW, who the hell do you go to, to charge you 100$ to install some silicone hose? :o seriously, you buy the hose, and slap that s**t on! :)

:ph34r:

[darkpuppet]

Jays2000ZX3,May 17 2004, 07:49 PM Wrote:Umm, I would have expected more then ~190whp with exhaust..no?

Still, glad to hear things are finallygoing better for you.

and BTW, who the hell do you go to, to charge you 100$ to install some silicone hose? :o seriously, you buy the hose, and slap that s**t on! :)

:ph34r:

the problem isn't putting the hose on, the problem is finding the right size, length, and getting the combination of parts to fit the way you want it to..without dragging the filter on the ground or losing it to an errant piece of retread when you drive.

By the time you're done hacking it all up at the shop ('cause what good is putting on a new MAF, if you can't ensure the tune works)... it takes time, which costs money.

There was a post on [FJ] that someone was getting 170HP with a non-HO kit, so maybe mine is meant to make 190 at the wheels with an exhaust.... only time will tell.

[Paparoach]

Jays2000ZX3,May 17 2004, 03:49 PM Wrote:and BTW, who the hell do you go to, to charge you 100$ to install some silicone hose?

J and T engineering would have charged $200....

Good find Steve :)

[darkpuppet]

I just ordered a 65mm Pro-M and cone filter adapter (just in case)...

when it arrives, I should be able to prepare a tune from the included flow sheet (included for free when bought from the pro-flow website), plug the baby in, and have the car running in under an hour.

3-5 business days before they ship it, so I'm going to be playing the waiting game unfortunately.. but it should be worth it in the end :)

[Flofocus]

darkpuppet,May 18 2004, 01:09 PM Wrote:I just ordered a 65mm Pro-M and cone filter adapter (just in case)...

when it arrives, I should be able to prepare a tune from the included flow sheet (included for free when bought from the pro-flow website), plug the baby in, and have the car running in under an hour.

3-5 business days before they ship it, so I'm going to be playing the waiting game unfortunately.. but it should be worth it in the end :)

I picked up my 70MM Pro-M a few weeks ago.....came with the flow sheet & 42lb Bosch Injectors!!!

Cant wait to get this stuff installed!!

Warning BIG PIC:

<a href='http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Flofocus/flowsheet.jpg'></a>

[naz]

darkpuppet,May 18 2004, 05:09 PM Wrote:I just ordered a 65mm Pro-M and cone filter adapter (just in case)...

yo steve.. would you mind giving us a ball park of the cost to you so far of this project?

like.. how much 'slush fund' would someone who bought that vortech kit need to have in their budget to straighten it all out?

[darkpuppet]

If we narrow it down to parts that work, I paid approximately the following:

$1100 ($700US) for the SCT Pro Racer package (flasher version)
$290 ($208 US) for the 65mm pro-M calibrated MAF
$333 for 1 hour on the dyno, 1 hour of wideband O2, and 1hour labour and parts at the shop (but they let me off easy).
$350 USD for datalogging software (laptop, pocket PC versions) and ford extensions.

and then the crap that hasn't worked..

$350 for the cobra MAF (after shipping and whatnot)
$55 for the Mustang GT MAF (incompatable MAF connector..not too keen on chopping my wiring harness more, but it would work in theory).

if all goes well with the 65mm MAF, I won't need any more adapters, clamps, tubes, etc to make it fit... whereas the 70mm would require some modifications to fit.

[naz]

so basically you had to get your own PCM and MAF in addition to the kit, which was like $1400usd

the retail of that SC kit is a little over 4000usd right?

so that means if you didn't get this kit for free tom's turbo kit would have been the same price (and it would have been 1 stop shopping)

(btw.. DAMN you got a good deal.. i didn't realize until how how much $$ that kit was)

[darkpuppet]

naz,May 18 2004, 05:49 PM Wrote:so basically you had to get your own PCM and MAF in addition to the kit, which was like $1400usd

the retail of that SC kit is a little over 4000usd right?

so that means if you didn't get this kit for free tom's turbo kit would have been the same price (and it would have been 1 stop shopping)

(btw.. DAMN you got a good deal.. i didn't realize until how how much $$ that kit was)

you're pretty much right on the money there naz.

The retail of the high output SC is about $4,000 USD.. and the polished kit is an extra $400 I think (I think I like the satin look better, but meh, I didn't pay for it, so i can't be picky now).

Tom's kit would have cost about the same in the end, with the only difference being that the vortech kit is emissions legal.

I'm also happy I spent the extra money on the pro-racer package. I'm saving time and money on all the tunes needed to figure out that we didn't have any matched MAFs (the ECU has been flashed about 15 times already, and expect at least 2 more when I get the new MAF in).

[darkpuppet]

Flofocus,May 18 2004, 05:14 PM Wrote:

darkpuppet,May 18 2004, 01:09 PM Wrote:I just ordered a 65mm Pro-M and cone filter adapter (just in case)...

when it arrives, I should be able to prepare a tune from the included flow sheet (included for free when bought from the pro-flow website), plug the baby in, and have the car running in under an hour.

3-5 business days before they ship it, so I'm going to be playing the waiting game unfortunately.. but it should be worth it in the end :)

I picked up my 70MM Pro-M a few weeks ago.....came with the flow sheet &amp; 42lb Bosch Injectors!!!

Cant wait to get this stuff installed!!

Warning BIG PIC:

&lt;a href='http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Flofocus/flowsheet.jpg'&gt;<a href='http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Flofocus/flowsheet.jpg'></a>&lt;/a&gt;

Did you get any more flow values other than the 9 provided on that sheet?

[naz]

flofocus.. you said you bought a 70mm MAF.. on that sheet it says they are testing a 65mm MAF... did you double check this? are they saying that the 65mm and 70mm are pretty much the same thing, did someone have fat fingers in data entry, or is this just the wrong sheet?

i'm just speculationg here... but i think for the transfer function you make the assumption that its linear in the range you are using it, so 9 points should be enough to interpolate the rest of the curve

if its easily explainable, could someone pls share the tech of how to go from that flow bench sheet to the transfer function ?

or better yet... title to a book please ?

[Flofocus]

DP. no, what you see is what you get!

naz: they even list 27 as the injector test. :huh: but then write #42 on it....so Im not to sure.

I'm gonna post it on the jet..

[darkpuppet]

naz,May 18 2004, 08:24 PM Wrote:flofocus.. you said you bought a 70mm MAF.. on that sheet it says they are testing a 65mm MAF... did you double check this? are they saying that the 65mm and 70mm are pretty much the same thing, did someone have fat fingers in data entry, or is this just the wrong sheet?

i'm just speculationg here... but i think for the transfer function you make the assumption that its linear in the range you are using it, so 9 points should be enough to interpolate the rest of the curve

if its easily explainable, could someone pls share the tech of how to go from that flow bench sheet to the transfer function ?

or better yet... title to a book please ?

to use that flow sheet, you would convert the kg/h of air into lbs/min, and the voltage into analog/digital converter 'counts' (multiply the voltage by 205).

Then you enter in the counts with their respective air lbs/min measurements into the MAF transfer function.

The only problem is with only 9 points, you will have to extrapolate the other 21 data points... and while MAFs follow a polynomial function curve, not all the values follow it exactly, so tweaking would be required after the initial tune. (back to the scanner/datalogger).

a sample MAF transfer function (this being the stock SVT MAF I believe) would look like the following:
<a href='http://www.darkpuppet.com/images/maf_transfer.jpg'></a>

note that blue values are less than stock values, and orange are greater than stock. You'll notice towards the bottom that the graphs for different MAFs can cross each other at different points, illustrating that MAF's don't follow a perfect scalar from each other...

you should see the goofiness of some of the old cobra MAFs....

I think it's safest to make sure you have all the datapoints you can get (my 65mm calibrated MAF will come with a 37 point flow sheet), and then go from there with your datalogger.

[darkpuppet]

Flofocus,May 18 2004, 09:37 PM Wrote:DP. no, what you see is what you get!

naz: they even list 27 as the injector test. :huh:&nbsp; but then write #42 on it....so Im not to sure.

I'm gonna post it on the jet..

the max value indicates 41lbs of air at 4.6 volts.

that should be good for over 260HP..

a Mustang GT only ingests 37lb/min of air for 260HP.

Don't use this quick calculation for max HP from that MAF, as I haven't taken into consideration the volumetric efficiency differences between the GT and focus... but the numbers will be close.

[naz]

sweet.. thanks steve

can't wait until you have it all sorted out!! this must be a combo of an awesome learning experience and a massive pain in the ass

[P-51]

I *think* the EEC also interpolates between those points. Anybody know for sure?

Here's my dyno chart, FWIW:

<a href='http://www3.sympatico.ca/robertlefebvre/pics/dyno-small.jpg'></a>

[darkpuppet]

P-51,May 19 2004, 12: Wrote:I *think* the EEC also interpolates between those points.&nbsp; Anybody know for sure?

that's a good question.. there's nothing in the documentation saying the MAF interpolates...but I get a feeling it doesn't. Most other values in the software seem to tell the EEC to look upwards until it finds the value it's closest to without going over.

would be interesting to find out for sure.

Quote:Here's my dyno chart, FWIW:
<a href='http://www3.sympatico.ca/robertlefebvre/pics/dyno-small.jpg'></a>

hmmmm..... torque......