[darkpuppet]

Sometimes I think I'm the king of poor timing...

stock options worth tens of thousands that vested 6 months after the internet bubble burst, relationship in trouble because my 3 year plan doesn't match her 1 year plan, got the focus 3 months before 0% financing, leased the stang 1 year before the parity dollar price matching,
and now work...

Lord knows I've been trying for years to get a Team Lead position -- I get along with most people, and my technical skills are fine enough... So my last client, I ask to be released from the team because there was no leadership opportunities... and my relationship with the team was soured a little when I stepped on the toes of an incompetent, yet bubbly developer who the rest of the male staff loved....

So now, I leave the project, get a Lead Developer role, and I find out today, that this girl (she's waaaay too immature to be a woman) ends up with a Team Lead position on the project I left because of other team member's absences.

And they want to bring me back on the project because I actually know something about development of the technology...

Christ -- do I really want to take direction from the one person who's every deliverable had to be redone by myself in the past?

it's just poor timing...

[ZX3_2NV]

someone really had to let it all out

Hopefully it will get better for u Puppet

[meford4u]

Sometimes you just have to be a little backhanded for your own good.

Don't redo her work and let her fail on her own two feet and maybe you will slide into that position. They(those in the corporate hierarchy) probably see the entire job as getting done to satisfaction of the client and she becomes the "hero" as a leader who "gets the job done". Well don't help her get the job done and let her merits be shown for what they are.

As for the g/f, fawk, women always have an idea of what they want, but change their minds at the drop of a hat. 1 year plan, 3 year plan, you don't need a friggin plan in life! Life is what you make it and sometimes your thrown a curve ball. So live in the now, save for the later and enjoy each other while you can. Tell her that if she has a 1 year plan, you have a 3 year plan, there could be some comprimise on both parties. If she ends the relationship with you now, then she has to start the hunt again and a new plan. If she's the right one, the two of you should have figured that out by now.

[NikiterZTS]

i think i know everything about Puppets life now....

[mo_focus]

wow, learn from someone with experience.

Meford well said. Let your job speak for you and make sure its known to others what you have done.

As for the wife, well how does the 2 year plan sound like? :) That’s the first thing in relationships I had to learn. Compromising is the key.

[naz]

so.. about your job stuff.. i dont know how else to put this without sounding like a big f$#king a$$ hat.. esp since we don't know each other in person.. but i'm going to type it anyway... i actually mean this as real advice.. not criticism or judgement in anyway

as a bit of background i work in mgmt consulting.. now in sales/marketing strategy, but used to be in IT implementation (design/deploy type stuff) in the financial service industry. i was a 'tech lead' 'project lead' etc etc diff places call it diff things

but the point is.. that 'tech/project lead' position is very visible, both internally (your team and rest of your co) and your clients... and most of the time its visible to ppl who don't know sh!t all about tech.. for example.. i would typically meet clients with the rest of my proj team to understand their requirements and we would go 'back to the lab' and code stuff up

because of the visible nature of the project it was sort of an unspoken thing that people who dress nice, look nice, have a huge rack etc were sometimes chosen over people who were like.. technically more proficient but had less social skills, presentation skills, or just flat out did not look nice..

i dont know what its like in your co.. but where i used to work ppl who were socially inept, did not groom properly, etc were kept 'in the lab' (ie as straight up developers and not client facing)

so to make a long ramble short.. i recommend that you perform an honest assessment of yourself.. the key question being "if i was the partner of this firm, would i want that person in front of my clients? would that person be taken seriously" and consider all aspects (appearance, social skill etc) not just straight up tech skill

also, you can always consider leaving. nothing wrong with peacing out if you have been treated unfairly.. you'll usually get more $ too when you jump ship

anyway.. hope that is helpful.. i'm sorry if this came off the wrong way

[NefCanuck]

Here's my two cents DP, take it for what it's worth...

If you know that you'd be walking into a potential clusterf**k going back and joining that team, why in the hell would you do it?

Let me tell you a story, back in 2001 I agreed to a secondment at our funder Legal Aid Ontario for one year (Then known as the Ontario Legal Aid Plan) to help develop and test new software for clinics to use in tracking client files and additionally offer basic tech support when I wasn't testing software.

After the year was nearly over they wanted to know if I wanted to continue the secondment, hell, they were looking to hire me away from the clinic, but aside from the fact that the travel from Mississauga to T.O. & back every day was killing me physically, mentally the job was driving me nuts because I was working my @$$ off doing what I was doing as part of my job and also picking up after an IT Help Desk that was as useless as a tow hook on a Focus :angry:

Moral of that ramble was, if you know its going to be trouble why willingly walk into it? That's career suicide IMO.

NefCanuck

[j3rt]

I'm gonna have to side with Naz. She may not know how to program well but if she presents well, manipulates the client easily and knows who to dump work onto then she will continue to move up.
Like he said, take a look at your lateral and upward movement options. If you can avoid working for her, push for that route. If you get stuck with her in the end, two options exist. Work harder than ever to make her shine, so she can be promoted the hell away from you. Or you can stick to your job description and responsibilities, track and save every email, cover your ass and let the project crash and burn.
I learned very early on that managers do not need to know 'how' but 'who'.

just my 2cents.

[NOS2Go4Me]

The job's a tough role, bud. You're going to be asked to serve under someone who checks their pants when asked about "open ports". :P

Personally, I'd run an end-around on them. Go over her head. Talk to her supervisors, explain the need for discretion and the fact you don't trust her judgement and offer up point-form, easy-to-digest examples of how she almost screwed the pooch in the past. If they're not horribly tech-savvy, you may have to sugar-coat or create a synopsis. Do what it takes to illustrate her faults, nicely, and the rest should be gravy.

As for women... pfft, yeah. As if we'll figure that out for you! :P Seriously, tho... some folks like hard numbers and then thrive off the success / flail about when presented with failure. Others go with the flow. It's a matter of "can I deal with her not being able to deal immediately" in my mind.

Best of luck, man. You know where I am if you need me.

[darkpuppet]

Well -- as far as the job issue goes, I'm not too concerned.. it would have been better if I stayed on as I'm sure I would have gotten the team lead position. That's where the timing thing comes in...

and that's sort of the frustrating bit. It's annoying to see people succeed despite utter incompetence. I got stuck under such leadership before and I bailed to the left.

The only problem with shifting jobs is rebuilding the reputation you had before. Unfortunately, I have more sway in other groups than I do in my own.

I would probably go back to the project, but I would push to go in as a Subject Matter Expert rather than a resource... It would just be annoying having to deal with the new team lead.

And yes, Naz, I admit, I'm not as flirty or good looking as this girl is... my mistake with dealing with her was stepping on her toes in the project -- 'cause she started the gossip train going and I wasn't around to defend myself -- and she has friends in powerful places within the group. It's hard for the unknown new guy in the group to defend against that.

But that's corporate politics. I've made progress in playing the game better this year, but I really dislike the game..

[oldeguy]

Just my two cents worth.

in regards to your 3 year plan, and her 1 year plan, unfortunately, women, no matter how "cool" and "understanding" towards the "inner child" in us men, they are, are in a rush, knowing that their "best before dates" are getting closer every day. If you two have the same plan, other than the timeline, either propose a timeline compromise or prioritize the two plans, to make one, ( if you are so inclined )

Although I have no real experience with the type of work you are doing, maybe, if you can, without jeopardising your employement standing, refuse to join the team that you are being asked to join, stating diplomatically, if possible, the reasons why.

One more little piece of advice....from an olde guy....stop looking at what could have been, look at what you have, there are people out there who are in worse shape, emotionally, physically and financially than most of us. :o Most of them drive 93 Civics :blink:

[naz]

darkpuppet,Jan 24 2008, 01:52 PM Wrote:Well -- as far as the job issue goes, I'm not too concerned.. it would have been better if I stayed on as I'm sure I would have gotten the team lead position.  That's where the timing thing comes in...

and that's sort of the frustrating bit.  It's annoying to see people succeed despite utter incompetence.  I got stuck under such leadership before and I bailed to the left. 

The only problem with shifting jobs is rebuilding the reputation you had before.  Unfortunately, I have more sway in other groups than I do in my own. 

I would probably go back to the project, but I would push to go in as a Subject Matter Expert rather than a resource...  It would just be annoying having to deal with the new team lead.

And yes, Naz, I admit, I'm not as flirty or good looking as this girl is... my mistake with dealing with her was stepping on her toes in the project -- 'cause she started the gossip train going and I wasn't around to defend myself -- and she has friends in powerful places within the group.  It's hard for the unknown new guy in the group to defend against that.

But that's corporate politics.  I've made progress in playing the game better this year, but I really dislike the game..
[right][snapback]256680[/snapback][/right]

random of topic Q: where is the bulk of your firms revenue stream? is it in software sales or service sales? i'd figure that out and make an end run straight to where the loot is at. its almost always way more fun to be at a revenue center than a cost center

back on topic... that sucks man. politics is a crap game.. but if there's politics in the office you either get good at it, leave for a new office, or get sh1t on forever. if you really dislike it i recommend that you leave for a new work environment. you aren't going to change it all by yourself, no one is immune to it. sucks but that's sorta how it is =(

the thing about being a 'team lead' is that you never know how it plays out until you are there. hard to say if you are better or worse off not getting that role.. does the team lead role have more $$ (or potential $$ later) associated with it? if not i wouldn't even sweat it..

also, even if you had stayed on the team with her, you still might not have gotten the job.. not trying to rag on you or anything.. but if the office has politics you never know how the decision would have gone down... flirty/good looking girl in software environment gets a lot of bonus points.... its almost better that you were not in direct competition

i really feel like you made that decision to bail for a reason and you shouldn't worry about it and focus on how you can chase more $ going forward... again i tihnk your next play depends on how you want to deal with the politics (get good at it, leave for a new office, or get sh1t on)

wihtout knowing anything else about a situation, i recommend leaving. its hard to learn politics and its not something that is satisfying to get good at if you aren't born liking it or being good at it

[darkpuppet]

.. oh, I'm in services... right in the revenue stream.

I don't really have a problem that needs to be solved per se... since I've already made my moves and whatnot -- and I could pretty much guarantee I would have gotten the team lead position -- it's not really more $$ (other than OT), but it is more exposure that I need to move up the chain more.

I actually did get maxed out on recognition awards this year for my work on the old project -- so the recognition is there, but like I said, there were politics involved and some people were well connected (and covered).

And that doesn't really change no matter what company you go to work for.

However, what happens when a protege embarrasses their mentor? Things inevitably swing the other way.. and I see it happening soon.

Now since I'm already off the project, there's not much that changes that, but without other team members around, her work is starting to speak for itself and I don't have to raise a finger.

I just posted a rant to get it off my chest.. it's my job to obsess about the details, and thinking off several missed opportunities is just -- well -- frustrating.

Anyways... to put the story in full perspective as far as work is involved...

Me and two other resources started on the project. I was the low man on the totem.

I identified gaps in process and design, discussed with the lead on the project and got no feedback... so I escalated as the project was going to tank quickly.

After escalation, other resources were brought in to cover the gaps. The current team lead at the time wanted me to be team lead as I had more experience with our company's methodologies and work products.

New resources were brought in to help.. the girl in question was brought in by a senior resource that was brought in (and is often brought in) to help fix critical projects.

In fact, it's likely these two people were dating at one point as well, and they were quite chummy.

Anyways, I delegate work to this girl and tell her to come to me if she has any problems. I had documented our look and feel, how to do the development, and we had a little tutorial to get the new developers started.

I asked over the next week or so if she needed any help, how it was coming along, etc... and asked when I could have it to peer review.

So I go to review her work product with the customer as a way for me to do a peer review and check her work against the customer requirements (and gather info on how to improve it). At the meeting with the customer, it was obvious that nothing worked or looked as it should -- despite all the documentation she had to help and insistance that she was doing just fine.

She in fact marked her progress on that work product as 100% complete.

So I went back to her, told her what needed to be fixed (3 times), and she never made the appropriate fixes.. and I updated her status on the form to 60%.

Then I went camping with you guys.

When I got back, the project manager that was brought on wasn't inviting me to meetings I should have been invited to, and I felt the senior guy and the PM pushing me out of the leadership role.

I asked for clarification of roles at which time, they picked the current team lead (and she's awesome -- very collaborative, open minded and intelligent)..

So I went to the PM and asked what was up...

well, apparently, I offended this girl -- and later on I found out they gossipped about it at a team lunch they had while I was away. So suddenly I was labeled as a trouble resource that surprised the people that I started the project with, and was orchestrated by the new people that recently joined.

as time would go on, I would end up redoing absolutely everything this girl did. There was NOTHING that she did according to our design or by accepted methods or practices... but the damage was done... Nobody could deny my technical skills, but there were 3 people that questioned my leadership ability (tho not the people I started with).

Over time, the PM would leave the project and a Senior PM was brought in to clean up... I would be consulted by everyone on the team for help with their work -- all, except this girl.. and in the end, most of the team would admit that her work product was abysmal.

Putting in the hours I did to recover from her mistakes led to the previously mentioned recognition awards, a third year in a row requiring special permit for me to work the hours I was working from the federal government and a very positive performance review.

However, even though my manager said, and I quote, "We can put you on any project our team would ever get, and we'll get you more leadership positions", there was still the, "just keep working on your leaderhip skills, like how to approach people with tact"... whch really boils down to the one complaint against me.

And I asked many times for other examples where I haven't shown tact (as I need to identify the behaviour if I'm going to change it), and they can't give me any more examples.

So there you have it... it's just one of those things where I pissed off the wrong person at the wrong time and I paid for it... Being new to the group I probably should have been a bit more careful, but now that I'm making a positive name for myself, there are many opportunities opening up.

[NefCanuck]

Now that you've explained the background... I think you were doomed to be labelled as a "troublemaker" from the start. You quickly discovered an issue with work habits which she managed to boomerang on to you as a clash of personalities.

People like that have been doing what they do for a long time and are damn good at it <_<

Hell, I've ruffled more than a few feathers down at our funder by pointing out flaws in logic to the CIO during quarterly meetings between clinic representatives and the Legal Aid CIO (This is the one that replaced the one who had earlier begged me to stay in Toronto because of my work ethic)

This CIO sloughs off concerns with a "we can handle it" attitude and when things do break down, washes his hands of it claiming vendor incompentance rather than looking at his rather "chummy" selection process for product which bypasses standard Request For Quote and Request For Proposal processes <_<

Hell, in fact one of his very first decisions, one of which I actually went as far as to write the Legal Aid CEO at the time to voice my objections, has blown up so spectacularly that Legal Aid is now spending (and has spent) at least twice what it would have had it gone with the solution that the CIO rejected as "too costly" to implement the flawed option and now implement something else entirely :rolleyes:

NefCanuck

[naz]

its not more $ don't worry about it. tons of other things to worry about. 'team lead' without more $ is crap. you need more $ to go with more responsibility dude

are you working at a large investment bank, hedgefund or software firm?

that's where the loot is at if you are in tech

i didn't like being in services very much.. i feel like you are usually the clients b!tch, and your clients are someone else's b1tch because they are using up a ton of capital that the ppl who make money wish was going somewhere else

i dunno. just my perspective. i like doing strat studies a lot better than design/deploy IT

my $.02