[LightAges]

First of all let me say that I understand that everyone has different interests and different values. My post is not meant to inflame or preach, but it will most certainly appear to be so. Please take this post as just something to ponder at the least.

It has come true, gas costs are rising rapidly. Many ecology advocates have been complaining about the popularity of huge and wasteful gas guzzling vehicles and it has been theorized that none of the owners of gas guzzling beasts would give a damn unless it started to really affect their pockets. So it has begun.

I see this feeling start to be expressed on the car forums which I read. There seems to be a new interest in getting better mileage from their cars. It seems the only concern is for the money saved, not for the fuel we can save from our dwindling supplies, nor for the less pollution we inflict on the whole world. Well I hope people realize that the direct cost of filling their tanks is not the only cost of using fuel like it won't run out. Pollution, rising food costs, rising goods costs, and health are all on the line.

Given the above, the costs of modifying a car for better mileage is not just about how much you can save on fuel against the costs of modifying. Sure, you can try and justify the costs by amortizing them against the fuel cost savings over the life of the vehicle. Given just that parameter you will most likely take a year or two to pay off the modifications in fuel savings based on current fuel prices. But fuel prices are based on supply and demand. If we still keep using fuel at the rate it is getting gulped down then the price will rise further. If we all made an effort to save fuel, it won't go up as far and part of the savings from your own pocket will be that lower pump price in the future compared to what you will have to pay if the demand does not go down. Fuel prices will still continue to rise no matter what.

There are also the hidden costs from higher fuel prices already mentioned that get buried in food prices, transportation prices and health problems from pollution.

Its not just about your own wallet and the price of the fuel you have to put in your car now. It is also all the costs you pay for anything that has fuel costs in its price.

So the next time someone suggests spending money on parts to get better mileage and you are one of those people who decide to tell them there is no benefit because it will take to long to pay off the parts in fuel savings, please consider the whole picture.

Footnote:
Many easy modifications for fuel economy also have the side benefit of increasing power. Anytime you can reduce pumping losses in an engine through cold air intakes and exhaust, you gain power AND fuel economy, but not at the same time. Drive with fuel economy in mind and these mods help. If you need or want that extra bit of power to pass or join a highway then these mods help there too.

[hardk0re]

I somewhat agree with your post but.

Carpooling is going to save a ton more. The fuel savings would be almost 90% savings and instant benefits and no upfront costs.

An intake/exhaust is going to save you MAX 2-5% fuel economy. Your upfront cost would be close to $800-1000.

Give an annual travel rate of 25,000
Give the cost of fuel @ $2.00 / Litre

It will take 6 years to pay off the intake/exhaust. If it was $5tre it will take 3 years to break even.

[LightAges]

I think you missed the point of my post entirely!

I agree that car pooling and using cars less is a much better answer (partial) to fuel usage but...

I was trying to point out that you shouldn't just account for your own out of pocket costs for modifying and your out of pocket savings in fuel. My whole point of this thread is that the picture is much bigger than this.

[Canadian ST]

LightAges,Jun 8 2008, 07:14 AM Wrote:I think you missed the point of my post entirely!

I agree that car pooling and using cars less is a much better answer (partial) to fuel usage but...

I was trying to point out that you shouldn't just account for your own out of pocket costs for modifying and your out of pocket savings in fuel. My whole point of this thread is that the picture is much bigger than this.
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If it makes you feel better I get great MPG's. On a different note my crane at work uses close to 500 litters of diesel in a 12 hour period.

My point.
Yes have a car that is good on gas, it is easy on the wallet. Do not kid yourself into thinking I (you) will save the planet by carpooling or driving less. If you took my example of what my crane uses in fuel and multiply that by 30 cranes (at my work) That is 15'000 litters of diesel per shift, there are 730 shifts in 1 year (two shifts a day) That adds up to 10950000 litters of diesel a year. There are thousands of machines like mine in North America alone, never mind what cargo ships use. Our company did look into using biodiesel but it gums up in the winter and the it voids the warranty on all equipment because it burns hotter.

[LightAges]

Canadian ST,Jun 8 2008, 07:48 AM Wrote:If it makes you feel better I get great MPG's. On a different note my crane at work uses close to 500 litters of diesel in a 12 hour period.

My point.
Yes have a car that is good on gas, it  is easy on the wallet. Do not kid yourself into thinking I (you) will save the planet by carpooling or driving less.

You are right. One modified car, or 20,000 are not going to fix things all by themselves. It is the bigger picture, the whole way of thinking that has to change. We need to carry over concerns to every way of life, not just driving.

[hardk0re]

I thought in your posts you were trying to explain that lowering consumption was a good idea...but it was long and i'mnot very smart. However car pooling is the most efficient consumption reducer, reducing consumption, reducting traffic. Overall more efficient.

The fact is that as fuel increases so will everything else. The truth is nothing we can do will stop the increase of price of a non renuable energy source. Sow it yes, stop it no.

Look around you...try very hard to find something that was not made with or modified using products made with oil...I bet you'll have a hard time.

Try and imagine what life would be like if we suddenly ran out of oil, suddenly could not manufacture what we can today. Those may jump in and say there are natural alternatives but human population is growing in on farm land every day.

Yes..I am Mr. Negatie today.

[darkpuppet]

people modify their cars to increase mileage?

I thought people did it to get a few extra ponies and HP always means more gas...

[LightAges]

darkpuppet,Jun 8 2008, 09:32 PM Wrote:people modify their cars to increase mileage?

I thought people did it to get a few extra ponies and HP always means more gas...
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Did you read the footnote to my original post?

[naz]

i started taking the train at work. i'm allowed to get 10mpg whenever i have fun in my car :)

btw the best fuel econ mod is the driver.. 55mph on the highway with cruise control sure is a lot better than 75+mph with lots of speed changes

[Canadian ST]

LightAges,Jun 8 2008, 11:27 PM Wrote:

darkpuppet,Jun 8 2008, 09:32 PM Wrote:people modify their cars to increase mileage?

I thought people did it to get a few extra ponies and HP always means more gas...
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Did you read the footnote to my original post?
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I had a SRI and a cat-back, that should have improved my MPG but my car sounded so good at 6'000rpm it cost way more to fill :D

[NOS2Go4Me]

The thing is - you've got the wrong audience!

A Ford Focus is one of the more efficient subcompacts out there. I would be standing and applauding if you had made this speech to the North American Hummer Owners' Association (if such a thing exists) or PimpMyEscalade.com. However, guys driving fairly thrifty 2.0L / 2.3L 4-cylinder cars aren't horribly tasked about every last drop. They're getting 6-7L/100KMs on the highway and 9-10 city on average. That's pretty respectable. Sure, they all piss and moan about their economy but on average we're all within 5-10% of each other (exept for those guys running boost! :P ).

Now, in your mindset, they should drive less. That's all well and good except for the fact that a fleet of Foci with less overall yearly KMs won't save nearly as much as all the full-size luxury SUVs on the roads if they, the SUVs, were driven less.

Actually, it's pretty bad when I sold my RX-8 and got into a 2008 Ford Escape to save gas. :P

Your drive is commendable, but your target audience is -----> that way. Look for the large, full frame vehicles driven by mid-level execs' soccer wives and such.

[darkpuppet]

LightAges,Jun 8 2008, 11:27 PM Wrote:

darkpuppet,Jun 8 2008, 09:32 PM Wrote:people modify their cars to increase mileage?

I thought people did it to get a few extra ponies and HP always means more gas...
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Did you read the footnote to my original post?
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not really....

but now I did, and I think you're right to a point, however, power lost to engine inefficiencies that is found by removing those inefficiencies, means a net-zero gain or loss in mileage.

That meaning, that any mileage lost in engine inefficiencies are still lost to extra power reaching the wheels at the end of the day.

Anything that gains in mileage must guarantee a net reduction in the amount of gas the car burns over a given distance. That's a given.

however, putting an SRI does not guarantee a reduction in the amount of gas the car burns. More air in = more gas burnt = more power.

If you reduce the engine's pumping inefficiencies, sure you can increase mileage, but that is usually lost as increased power.

Therefore, to truly gain better mileage, one would have to install mods that restrict the burning of gas -- which has no other alternative than to reduce available power.

people who were experiencing bad mileage due to pumping losses, were likely the ones operating their engine outside peak efficiencies, which is not typically indicative of someone driving for mileage to begin with.

[LightAges]

Pumping losses in an engine are overcome using power. This power is wasted energy because it does not provide motive force. If one reduces the pumping loss, then the wasted energy used to overcome it is reduced.

If you reduce throwing gas away to overcome pumping losses but still accelerate and run the same speed then your mileage increases.

If you choose to use the extra power available to accelerate harder or drive faster then you do not gain mileage but rather are taking advantage of the power not being used to pump air.

[naz]

try it out and let us know how your fuel economy changes.

track your fuel consumption over the same route over a 1 month period (take a measurement daily)

get an intake, exhaust whatever mods you think help, drive that same route for another month

let us know if it helps your fuel use

i think you'll find the difference is so small it won't be statistically significant. what would be significant is changing your driving habits all together.. drive slower, don't drive.. you get the idea

[LightAges]

I have already determined my best practices gas mileage for a typical month. It is 7.5L/100km.

I most certainly will be testing my new mileage once I get over the fun of the extra power. :D

[Canadian ST]

LightAges,Jun 10 2008, 08:56 PM Wrote:I have already determined my best practices gas mileage for a typical month. It is 7.5L/100km.

I most certainly will be testing my new mileage once I get over the fun of the extra power.  :D
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Thats about mine to, I use the trip computer and on average its 7L/100km or 36mpg. Thats not bad considering thats city and highway. I will get about 620-650km to 40-42 liters. The sweet spot on my car is 95kph-100kph.

[LightAges]

My 7.5L/100km is calculated from fill up to fill up and distance traveled. Trip computers might be a little optimistic to make the buyer happier with the car. But if you are driving a 2008, it might be that good as they are supposed to be better.

[Canadian ST]

LightAges,Jun 10 2008, 11:01 PM Wrote:My 7.5L/100km is calculated from fill up to fill up and distance traveled. Trip computers might be a little optimistic to make the buyer happier with the car.  But if you are driving a 2008, it might be that good as they are supposed to be better.
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Yah the distance to empty says I should get 680km when I only get620km, once it read 700km and I got 660km. I guess it estimates off the last fill up. The 08 are better on gas then the 06-07 durtec, at least thats what I was told. Over all I dont think you can find a better car for the price. Its good on gas they haddle great and they are dependable plus they hold up great in a crash.

[LightAges]

Canadian ST,Jun 10 2008, 11:27 PM Wrote:and they are dependable plus they hold up great in a crash.
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I hope you aren't speaking from experience.....

[Canadian ST]

LightAges,Jun 10 2008, 11:28 PM Wrote:

Canadian ST,Jun 10 2008, 11:27 PM Wrote:and they are dependable plus they hold up great in a crash.
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I hope you aren't speaking from experience.....
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