[ZTWsquared]

So a while back I was complaining about slow internet and it turned out the problem was the return signal loss going back through my drop amp which was in the process of failing.

So I moved my cable modem and router into the basement and basically split them off before the amp and left the drop amp to deal with just the tv runs.

So two new things now - the drop amp is on its last legs and I'm rebuilding my CATV system ... and I scored a deal at Sams Club in the US ... a Sony 3D Blu ray player with ethernet AND wireless for just 138 USD (a price labelling error, normally 168 - still not too shabby.

So I'm thinking my new system should have a couple of drop amps, a one-outlet with active return to power the internet side of things, and a 8-way to feed the TVs ... but I'm now reading about another potential problem ... VOIP.

I have two VOIP lines now and some blogs I've read says they do better with no amplification whatsoever. They are currently connected to a gigabit switch which is ethernet to the router ... but my current amp is relatively low power and no active return.

So ... my new amps will be more powerful, and with two of them so fewer runs per amp ... do I need a third split and another router just for the VOIP - or will 4 computers, a NAS, the Sony Blu Ray, a wireless printer and two VOIPS in fact require two-way amplification?

[paolo]

(07-03-2011, 02:47 PM)ZTWsquared Wrote: So a while back I was complaining about slow internet and it turned out the problem was the return signal loss going back through my drop amp which was in the process of failing.

So I moved my cable modem and router into the basement and basically split them off before the amp and left the drop amp to deal with just the tv runs.

So two new things now - the drop amp is on its last legs and I'm rebuilding my CATV system ... and I scored a deal at Sams Club in the US ... a Sony 3D Blu ray player with ethernet AND wireless for just 138 USD (a price labelling error, normally 168 - still not too shabby.

So I'm thinking my new system should have a couple of drop amps, a one-outlet with active return to power the internet side of things, and a 8-way to feed the TVs ... but I'm now reading about another potential problem ... VOIP.

I have two VOIP lines now and some blogs I've read says they do better with no amplification whatsoever. They are currently connected to a gigabit switch which is ethernet to the router ... but my current amp is relatively low power and no active return.

So ... my new amps will be more powerful, and with two of them so fewer runs per amp ... do I need a third split and another router just for the VOIP - or will 4 computers, a NAS, the Sony Blu Ray, a wireless printer and two VOIPS in fact require two-way amplification?

The recommended connection method is as follows, give this a try:

If you have just CATV and Internet, then you would have a single drop coming into your basement to a grounding block, From there, you would need to put a good quality 2-way splitter, (or 3-way depending on your signal strength and distance from the street pedistal) the first leg of the Splitter, should go directly into your Cable modem do not put any amps on this line and try not to splice this line either.

The second leg of that 2-way, will go into your drop amplifier, then will go into another splitter. try to use a splitter consistant with how many TV outlet drops you will have, but also try to keep the number even because if you use a 3-way splitter, for your TV runs, you will have -3 db loss on one leg, and -7db loss on the other 2 legs causing your TV's to have inconsistent signal. try to keep it consistant. use 4 or 6 way splitters.

Now, you will want to log into your cable modem and check the Signal level values to make sure you are within limits. Here is some guidelines to make sure your cable modem falls within these limits:

Downstream Power (-15dbmV to +15dbmV)
Most modems are rated from -15dB to +15dB, however it's best to have it between +8dB and -8dB. Anything less or more than that and you may have quality issues.

Upstream Power (37dbmV to 55dbmV)
The lower this number is, the better. Above 55dB will most probably cause problems, over 57dB and you probably won't be able to connect.

Signal/Noise Ratio (>30dB)
SNR is best over 30, (the higher the better, might work well with as low as 25 at times). Anything less than 25 will cause dropped connections, packet loss, slow transfers, etc.

[ZTWsquared]

(07-03-2011, 09:35 PM)paolo Wrote: The recommended connection method is as follows, give this a try:

If you have just CATV and Internet, then you would have a single drop coming into your basement to a grounding block, From there, you would need to put a good quality 2-way splitter, (or 3-way depending on your signal strength and distance from the street pedistal) the first leg of the Splitter, should go directly into your Cable modem do not put any amps on this line and try not to splice this line either.

The second leg of that 2-way, will go into your drop amplifier, then will go into another splitter. try to use a splitter consistant with how many TV outlet drops you will have, but also try to keep the number even because if you use a 3-way splitter, for your TV runs, you will have -3 db loss on one leg, and -7db loss on the other 2 legs causing your TV's to have inconsistent signal. try to keep it consistant. use 4 or 6 way splitters.

Now, you will want to log into your cable modem and check the Signal level values to make sure you are within limits. Here is some guidelines to make sure your cable modem falls within these limits:

Downstream Power (-15dbmV to +15dbmV)
Most modems are rated from -15dB to +15dB, however it's best to have it between +8dB and -8dB. Anything less or more than that and you may have quality issues.

Upstream Power (37dbmV to 55dbmV)
The lower this number is, the better. Above 55dB will most probably cause problems, over 57dB and you probably won't be able to connect.

Signal/Noise Ratio (>30dB)
SNR is best over 30, (the higher the better, might work well with as low as 25 at times). Anything less than 25 will cause dropped connections, packet loss, slow transfers, etc.

Thanks ... I think. My plan is to split just after the ground, with one drop for the cable modem and one for the TV amp. I'm not worried about the TV side ... the amp I have in mind has 8 outs @ +4 db ea - so no splitters required, it will be a single run to each device.

The question I have on the cable modem side is this ... with 5 computers, Sony Bluray, NAS, and 2 VOIP lines all going through the one cable modem ... my plan was to use one of those special bi-directional active-return amps (amplifies both ways - 52-1000 hz coming in and >42hz going out) to maintain reliability (it doesn't increase speed, but minimized loss in either direction) ...

... but I've heard that the VOIP system doesn't like the amplification ... is this true or not ... does anyone have a VOIP line on the hot side of an RF amp.

[paolo]

You really shouldn't amp the run that goes to the modem. NOTE: Amplifiers are to boost EXISTING GOOD SIGNAL in order to increase the distance that it will travel. Do NOT use an Amp to fix a noisy or bad signal; You'll just end up amplifying a bad signal.

Return amps amplify the entire return spectrum, not just the modem signals, and this can cause huge problems for everybody connected to that same CMTS port and other upstream receiver gear if some unintentional signal gets in on the line.

Just make sure the modem is within the values I posted, the most you can do to improve it if its weak is to use good quality cables like RG6.

[j3rt]

I use an amp from Motorola from the Source. Single port out to a 3 port splitter for the TVs, and SageTV tuners.

Your question above, was not really a question. Can you ellaborate.

[ZTWsquared]

(07-05-2011, 01:40 AM)j3rt Wrote: I use an amp from Motorola from the Source. Single port out to a 3 port splitter for the TVs, and SageTV tuners.

Your question above, was not really a question. Can you ellaborate.

Yeah ... there's a new type of drop amp out there specifically for use with a cable modem ... it's amplified coming in (55-1002 hz) and going out (<42hz) with adjustable gain for both directions ... supposedly it is ideal for your cable internet access because it eliminates any loss going back through line runs and/or splitters.

Apparently (and I've experienced this myself) if your signal back to Rogers is weak, their system automatically throttles your down/upload speed and conversely, a strong signal causes their system to increase speeds.

So ... I'm going to be using this amp ... but I've been told that even though these amps are great for the cable modem, VOIP services don't like the stronger signal ...

So - does anyone have VOIP connected to a network that has a drop amp feeding into the cable modem.

[paolo]

Voip wont work any better based on the cable modem RF signals, it is actually already modulated well enough. AVoip will work well with a solid internet connection with low latency. is that what you are tryign to achieve? I would go ahead and try your drop amp, chances are, it might not really improve much, its ultimately rogers (or your local cable co) responsibility to ensure your modem is communicating properly with the cmts. Even though you can adjust your amp, you might end up amplifying more "noise" back to the line if you do not know what you are doing.

[ZTWsquared]

(07-05-2011, 02:52 PM)paolo Wrote: Voip wont work any better based on the cable modem RF signals, it is actually already modulated well enough. AVoip will work well with a solid internet connection with low latency. is that what you are tryign to achieve? I would go ahead and try your drop amp, chances are, it might not really improve much, its ultimately rogers (or your local cable co) responsibility to ensure your modem is communicating properly with the cmts. Even though you can adjust your amp, you might end up amplifying more "noise" back to the line if you do not know what you are doing.

I have an excellent signal from Rogers at my demarcation point ... for various reasons including the number and the length of my runs, and the number of devices, I suffer a lot of loss in the house. My goal isn't so much to improve the Rogers signal but rather to eliminate the loss.

My goal is to boost the incoming 55-1000hz signal that goes to all my devices, and to eliminate any loss on the 5-42hz return signal that goes back to Rogers (which typically, without amplification, can be as much as -10db and even more) which is necessary to ensure I get max bandwidth, and for the proper communication of whatever 2-way devices I have - as explained a couple of times before.

It seems logical to me that signal loss would cause problems with VOIP and therefore amplification to eliminate the loss should be a good thing.

However I've read otherwise on the internet but I don't know if I trust the sources.

Paolo; I know you've got the theoretical knowledge, but I'm actually looking for someone who has the actual experience of operating VOIP within an amplified network. No offense ... but it's not particularly helpful to tell me that I can go ahead and "try something" ... I'm looking for someone who has already tried it. Thanks.

[paolo]

Well I DO have a VOIP system off my cable modem, I mistakenly amp'd my modem drop by mistake. All I can tell you is that I've had success just leaving the drop alone.
The problems I was having with my voip were due to the crappy SMC modem that Rogers gave me, once I changed it to the Scientific Atlantic modem and they all went away. Like I said before, and I'll say it again, since you have the amp, just give it a try with and without. cant hurt. You dont have to take my advice, but try it with and without the amp and let us know how it goes. Good luck with this!

p.s. noticed you said you have good signal at your demarcation point, why not just put your modem right off the leg at the demarcation as close as possible, therefor it will have little to no loss? then once its converted to ethernet, you wont have to worry about loss over distance, because ethernet has different you can even put your voip adapter right off the modem as close as you can?

P.P.S. I never heard about if your signal back to Rogers is weak, their system automatically throttles your down/upload speed and conversely, a strong signal causes their system to increase speeds?. I DO know that it is roger's responsibility to ensure your modem get strong signal, and if it doesnt they will replace what ever necessary until your modem does.

[ZTWsquared]

(07-06-2011, 10:56 AM)paolo Wrote: Well I DO have a VOIP system off my cable modem, I mistakenly amp'd my modem drop by mistake. All I can tell you is that I've had success just leaving the drop alone.
The problems I was having with my voip were due to the crappy SMC modem that Rogers gave me, once I changed it to the Scientific Atlantic modem and they all went away. Like I said before, and I'll say it again, since you have the amp, just give it a try with and without. cant hurt. You dont have to take my advice, but try it with and without the amp and let us know how it goes. Good luck with this!

p.s. noticed you said you have good signal at your demarcation point, why not just put your modem right off the leg at the demarcation as close as possible, therefor it will have little to no loss? then once its converted to ethernet, you wont have to worry about loss over distance, because ethernet has different you can even put your voip adapter right off the modem as close as you can?

P.P.S. I never heard about if your signal back to Rogers is weak, their system automatically throttles your down/upload speed and conversely, a strong signal causes their system to increase speeds?. I DO know that it is roger's responsibility to ensure your modem get strong signal, and if it doesnt they will replace what ever necessary until your modem does.

Thanks Paolo - I haven't ordered the new amp(s) yet and I didn't see where you said you had VOIP back of the amp - sorry 'bout that.

And yeah, when I spoke to Rogers tech while diagnosing my speed problems he mentioned it.

[darkpuppet]

I would recommend that if you can, run your router directly from your demarcation point.

You aren't using Rogers home phone, are you? if so, it's still pretty simple, cable --> splitter --> cable modem (or mau) --> router. With the other splitter going to one way amps to your TVs.

Remember that signal strength isn't the only thing that affects the speed of your bandwidth. The base signal carriers that determine the time slices used by your modem are another thing to worry about. These are responsible for allowing your modem to sync up and send transmissions at a given speed over all that shared traffic. Amplifying can add latency to the signals that can fall below optimal ranges and affect your maximum speed. It all depends on how much crap there is between you and the backbone.

So, signal : noise is good, but lower signal latencies is typically better -- and often crucial for UDP protocols like VOIP.

When it comes to cable infrastructure in your household, do as little as you possibly can to only fix what's wrong, since there's always a risk that adding more will only cause trouble.

Your router should be able to handle all of the traffic, but you'll probably want to set up QoS to ensure enough bandwidth is reserved for your VOIP. Get me your router model number and VOIP setup details and I can get you settings...