[NOS2Go4Me]

Err make that "we need a serious discussion forum - no smacktards allowed". Anyways.

I read a disturbing report the other day that one of our most vocal MPs thinks that the best way to combat the migration of our best and brightest out of Ontario to other destinations is to import more immigrants.

But, there's a fundamental problem with that train of thought. No matter how "smart" these immigrants may be, we're counting on two things that might not always exist: core competency and commonality in taught theoreticals and applied skills, and English and/or French as a business language.

We're going to consider allowing these new immigrants to work in our society, where (hopefully) a high degree of professionalism is expected of them. However, our "equal opportunity" employment laws are a sham when it comes to making allowances for people who apply for jobs but fall outside the realistic expectations of a successful job candidate. What we're going to end up with is the "call center-ification" of our skilled professional workforce.

Picture this: you go to work tomorrow, and your co-worker of 5+ years is replaced with someone who has been in Canada for maybe 6 months, tops. They're supposedly qualified for the position they've been placed in, and they supposedly have an "equivalent" diploma for your field of study. However, their command of the English language is poor at best. You're told to "assist" the new person as they "adjust to their new corporate environment". You don't know if the new person will be receiving ESL training at the very least, and upon inspection of their daily routine you realize they're a lot less competent than your boss would have you believe.

Do you rat them out? Work something out with them in regards to training? Go to your boss for a raise because you're training these new people? Do you even bother trying to help as corporations are notorious for promoting visible minorities over "other", established Canadians?

Discuss. Smacktards, go to the back of the class, put on your Dunce caps and face the wall. Remain silent.

And before anyone asks, no, this isn't happening to me. It DID happen to me quite a few years ago, and what I did was probably the best thing I could have done at the time. I'll reveal that later on.

Also, I might add that existing, established minority groups in Canada still receive preferential treatment for reasons that are unbeknownst to me. If you have a German, Polish, French, or "English" last name, you should be treated the same. It's Canada, welcome to Canada, you should be treated the same as the rest of the Canadians. But that's my opinion. Back to the discussion.

[Raine]

NOS2Go4Me,Oct 18 2005, 10:05 AM Wrote:It's Canada, welcome to Canada, you should be treated the same as the rest of the Canadians.
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Then the question raised should be what makes a Canadian? Having a citizenship card or a passport from the great white north seems enough. Heck a social insurance number and a landed immigrancy card does the trick. Canadian corporations are beginning to rewrite the book the Americans started. We have scaled the wall out outsourcing as high as it can be scaled, now we go insofar as to tell our own home grown qualified people that they can't get a job because Mr Jeyasivalingam from Sri Lanka has the same degree and we need him.

Why?

2 reasons. Firstly, Mr. Jeyasivalingam comes from a country where the GDP is 1/4 of what it is in Canada. He lives in meagre conditions year round and even if he himself is one of the upper class citizens, 15 mins down the road there is poverty. Mr. Jeyasivalingam is here not because he likes the Canadian climate but because there is no work at home. He will come here and work for 1/2 the cost of an equally trained Canadian citizen, work double the hours, and then put in shifts at a second job to make a buck. He costs less for more work

Secondly, Mr. Jeyasivalingam likely speaks Tamil or Singalese. In a city like Toronto, that's a major benefit, not just for himself, but for the company that hires him, because it enables him to speak to what's quickly becoming the second most populous race in our city. He adds a level of personal touch for those clients who are also from Sri Lanka (again, just an example) and allows people who are fresh off the boat conduct business and spend money comfortably right away, instead of having to first learn English or find a competent translator.

Fact of the matter is, the Feds think in numbers predeeced by dollar signs. Why pay a white middle class Canadian $50/hr when a new immigrant with supposed equal qualifications will do the same job for $30/hr? And if he doesn't do it perfectly that's okay, that's what salaried management is for, to help them along.

And while we're at it, let's cut tax benefits to large corportations and small businesses alike! They're making plenty of money now that they can employ immigrants for less and make the same - if not better - sales, they can well afford to pay full taxes.

Do you see where it goes?

Were I in the situation whereby I knew someone wasn't cut out for the job but got it because of their ethnicity when a fully competent and well settled white or black Canadian had been outsted in favour of the immigrant, would I rat on them? Would you? I don't think so. Why? Because that sets you up for exactly what the company wants - a perfect excuse to terminate you. You're a racist. Doesn't matter if you are or you aren't, your claims of lack of productivity and professionalism will fall on near deaf ears. All they will hear is the sound of the extra coins rattling around in their pockets, and you saying you have a problem working with immigrants.

All in all I feel for people just coming out of university (like myself in 6 months) who have no plan to have their own business, or have no contacts by which to get around the normal job ap process. Vanessa's been out of school for 2 months, still looking for a job, as are all the white, west indian, and black kids in her program. Almost each and every chinese person who graduated the same time as she did - even with lesser marks - is now employed. More than 60% of them CANNOT SPEAK ENGLISH PROPERLY... but they speak mandarin and/or cantonese... what more do you need in Markham/East Toronto?

[NefCanuck]

As a member of a visable minority (the differently abled to be PC about it :rolleyes:) let me paint you a picture from the other side of the fence.

Imagine this: As a member of a visable minority you know you're already behind the eight ball when it comes to being hired. You can have all the skills in the world, present a polished resume that would make a manager green with envy in terms of a skillset and you get called in for the interview...

and then the potential employer sees you...

This happened to me while I was doing my co-op term for my Programmer/Analyst diploma at Sheridan back in the mid '90's (and this was even before my auto accident). Employers would be polite and interview me but you knew the minute they saw what was walking in the door "it just wasn't going to work out" one even went so far as to say to my face that they couldn't use me for the co-op term because "they didn't think I could do the heavy lifting required of a co-op student" I was thinking "WTF? Do you make the students lug 50lb boxes regularly without assistance?"

That's what ultimately turned me off the computing field as a career, here in the clinic system, giving legal advice it doesn't matter what you look like, as long as you can do the job well, are willing to put in the time to keep your skills updated and are willing to go the extra mile for your clients (some of whom can be difficult to serve, through no fault of their own) you'll do well and be reasonably well rewarded for your efforts.

Just my two cents, GST & PST where applicable...

NefCanuck

[crazikev]

[scoobasteve]

wow, now that this post was edidted. my laughing is out of place...


bleh

[Raine]

I don't mean to make your scenario seem less to the point, Nef, but there is a massive difference between being a visible minority as a result of a disability and as a result of creed/ethnicity. The two really can't be put on the same page. An employer may question your ability to do a job due to the fact that you wear a brace, and carry a cane. What we were saying is that if you were able bodied, and stood toe to toe with an Asian of comparable skill, the most likely scenario (and preferred one, according to the Federal Gov't) is that your Asian counterpart would get the job.

[ANTHONYD]

Companies by law have to employ a certain percentage of ethnic employees no?

[FocusGuy7476]

its the Employment Equity Act of 1995 that says how you are hire employees. so if there are 2 people of that have the same qualification and one is asian and the other is white, the asian will probably get the job. but this only applies to companies with 100 plus employees and that company has to hire employees that reflect the population of the location. so if a company is located in toronto, and there is 30% of the population is Asian, then that company has to 30% of their employee Asian. make any sense.

now there is the BFOQ that can allow employers to discrimate againest people if they can not perform the job.

i'll add some more later.

[Frost__2001]

well I'm not shocked by this but I expect it really, I work in the lower fields work and really I can tell you it's worse off being a Supervisor to many visual minoritys from lets say India, because your the one that's at blame when you come in and try to help out.


I don't know if anyone on here knows what it's like to hear complaints from a customer that dose not like the fact that your employees are speaking a different language other then the spoken offical two.

I'm sure most of you would not know what it's like to immergrate and try to set up in a different country, as most do. I'm suprised that no one has yet mentioned that laws here in Canada for example, If a well documented Doctor was to immergrate to Canada from a place like India, or China and was at the top of their field in their country and came here, But went to schools in their home country and recieved all their deplomia's and such there, and come here only to have it not vaild. And then have to go though a long prosscess of going back to school only to get the same degree in the same field in western Education............. if they get into those programs as there is a minimum wait of 2 years or more, and the class size is 100 students per year.

I'm suprised though that this topic was brought up in the first place, I'm sure none of you here can say you work with some one who is qualified to run a Nucular power plant, or is a registered nurse and can't find a job because their education was invalid when they moved here. Do you really know what it's like for them to come here with a guise that they will have a job, and when they get here they make minimum wage ? It's not right.

[ANTHONYD]

Apparently my post was too much for some members. :rolleyes:

[Oscar The Grouch]

ANTHONYD,Oct 19 2005, 10:31 AM Wrote:QUOTE(NOS2Go4Me @ Oct 18 2005, 11:05 AM)
Err make that "we need a serious discussion forum - no smacktards allowed". Anyways.

I read a disturbing report the other day that one of our most vocal Members thinks that the best way to combat the slowness of his best and brightest SPI of North Bay was to add an import friendly carbon fibre hood.

But, there's a fundamental problem with that train of thought. No matter how "fast" these SPI's may be, we're counting on two things that might not always exist: Horsepower and the power to modify without advanced skills.

We're going to consider allowing these SPI owners to work in our society, where (hopefully) a high degree of professionalism is expected of them. However, our "equal opportunity" Focus ownership laws are a sham when it comes to making allowances for people who modify their SPIs but fall outside the realistic expectations of a successful modification. What we're going to end up with is the "ricification" of our SPIs.

Picture this: you look at your car tomorrow, and your stock hood of 5+ years is replaced with carbon fibre hood for no apparent reason. They're supposedly qualified for the position they've been placed in, and they supposedly have a "perfect fit" diploma for your SPI. However, the engine below the hood is a poor show of horsepower at best. You're told to "remove" the new rice "adjust to the acceptable modifications". You don't know if the new hood will be receiving props at the very least, and upon inspection of the hood, you realize that the members of Focus Canada.net were right all along.

Do you rant them out? Go crying to mommy because no one likes your suggestions? Go to your Admin for a ban because you're tired of the hazing you get from these people? Do you even bother trying to help your car "compete", alongside established Members?
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:rolleyes: *shakes head* Why do people have to make things so difficult?

[scoobasteve]

NEW SLOGAN

Focuscanada- Where life is difficult for SPI owners. :P

[NOS2Go4Me]

I thought I mentioned bs was supposed to be left out? I guess it can't be helped.

Anyways, back to the topic.

Nef, I can agree with you completely believe it or not. My point was due to ethnic imbalances in the hiring and employment practices of companies. As far as any disabled person goes, as long as they can perform the requirements of the job in every respect they should get the job. If the job places requirements on the applicant that the disabled person can't fulfill, then they shouldn't be hired. Why should a co-worker shoulder the weight of some of the disabled applicant's responsibilities in order to allow the company to make a political statement by hiring said disabled person? I don't believe they should, and judging by your post you don't believe that to be right, either.

What I liken it to is this: you go overseas for post-secondary education but your language skills in that new place are shaky at best, verbally and literately. You then deicde to apply for a position you would ace at home. If the foreign firm hires you over someone else from that region that is just as competent, and your language barrier impedes you from the full obligation of your duties, then they're being racist.

Frost - you're assuming core competency equivalency. You're assuming that theoretical and hands-on education in a third-world or "remote" location rivals or exceeds that of a Canadian / US-led education. How can you assume that? Do you really want to realize that the new "foreign" doctor has never heard of a common way to treat your injury and decides to chop off your hand/foot? Do you really think that you can go to some remote part of the world and receive the same care?

It's ludicrous to think that those with limited exposure to proper education can be expected to arrive in a technologically-advanced society and perform to the standards of said society without any re-education. It might work from time to time, and we might get lucky, but do you want to go under the knife hoping that the doctor will get "lucky"?

I don't discount immigration... I can sympathize with and understand that others want to flee a life that is not proper or up to the minimum standards of what we all consider "humane living conditions". What I don't agree with is a lopsided idea that we should replace our post-secondary educated youth with direct immigrants that have had no formal North American post-secondary education.

You call it improper that they work for minimum wage. When I call a help-desk line for support that I PAY FOR, and I can't understand what's being said to me because the help desk person has an accent thicker than London Fog, that's a problem. A BIG problem. Have fun in the OR.

[Raine]

Frost__2001,Oct 19 2005, 03:19 AM Wrote:I'm suprised though that this topic was brought up in the first place, I'm sure none of you here can say you work with some one who is qualified to run a Nucular power plant, or is a registered nurse and can't find a job because their education was invalid when they moved here. Do you really know what it's like for them to come here with a guise that they will have a job, and when they get here they make minimum wage ? It's not right.
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Actually I know a guy who was completely qualified as an electrical engineer who came from India and is now working in a call centre making $10/hr.

Your point has a bit of validity, in respect to the fact that it's no walk in the park to set up shop in a new country when your credentials are not recognized, but my question to you is, where in Canada is your piece of paper from an Indian, or Chinese, or any Asian university not good enough to be acknowledged here? There is not a 2 year waiting list to re-sit your bar or your MCAD's here, and the preparation courses are only 6 weeks long. I have 2 lawyers in the family who immigrated to Canada from England, one from India, and a doctor from east africa... all were certified to practice in Canada within 5 months of coming here. The major problem with our country is that we are more prepared to offer the benefit of the job to the immigrants instead of our own citizens in order to appear more international and accepting of multiculturalism. That's not really fair to a kid who's spent $25k a year for 4 years to attend Osgoode law school in addition to the $25k for his/her undergrad... is it? Or the chartered management accountant who pulled his ass out of bed every morning at 7 am for 8 hrs of class 5 days a week only to be told that he's not going to get the job because he doesn't speak chinese? Let's be reasonable here. The major issue is that people who are new to the country are being favoured over home grown talent... not only in high profile positions, but all across the board... and those with a lesser grasp of the English language are being put in every position where english is the principle means of communication. Why is it when I go to even COFFEE TIME, I have to tell the girl behind the counter 9 times the donut I want, and then go so far as to write it on a napkin so she can compare names because she didn't bother to learn english before fleeing the People's Republic? Tell me what's not right mate?

[crazikev]

Raine,Oct 19 2005, 10:59 PM Wrote:high profile positions
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cough*Govenorgeneral*cough

that is a joke

[Oscar The Grouch]

crazikev,Oct 20 2005, 03:14 AM Wrote:

Raine,Oct 19 2005, 10:59 PM Wrote:high profile positions
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cough*Govenorgeneral*cough

that is a joke
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Yeah Martin is now officially labeled a Fuktard for appointing someone who:

1. is not a born Canadian
2. has supported the separation of QuÃbec

[ANTHONYD]

The diswasher at my the bar I used to work at was a Doctor in Sri Lanka. :blink:

[FociPhil]

ANTHONYD,Oct 20 2005, 01:06 PM Wrote:The diswasher at my the bar I used to work at was a Doctor in Sri Lanka. :blink:
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Yeah man when i was a cook at a bar, 4 out of 5 guys i worked with in the kitchen were engineers and doctors!! I was 17 and had the same job they had!!

[scoobasteve]

I guess thats what happens when education doesnt translate.

Some people below me here are rocking their masters degrees, Bachelors... what have you

and i'm here 20 yrs old. with highschool education. WTG society.