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NOS2Go4Me · 10-22-2005, 01:41 AM

I was just reading the Oct. 17 issue of TIME... and they asked a most interesting question: Can the war in Iraq still be won?

There is a growing number of people who believe that the second the American / coalition troops leave Iraq... the country will descend into chaos. It's widely believed that if everyone left right now, the entire country would be burning tomorrow and then be divided up amongst its neighbours next week.

The Americans, in my opinion, have opened Pandora's box and now they cannot close it. If they leave, they're abandoning the innocent to the mercies of the ruthless and savage terrorists (I refuse to call them insurgents). If they stay, they're dictators. If they install an autocratic head of state, it's Saddam and Afghanistan all over again for the Nth time.

What's your opinion? Can the war ever truly be won? Will Iraq remain the same once the "coalition" leaves? Can democracy survive in such a fractured part of the world? Anything else to add?

Discuss.

FociPhil · 10-22-2005, 01:46 AM

I personlly think that it cant be won. Your exactly right. Soon as they leave s**t will hit the fan again.

There are too many terrorists (or whatever you want to call them) then there are Iraqi police or army. The only way to fix it is stay, or nuke the place and start over.

***darkpuppet*** · 10-22-2005, 01:54 AM

it can't be won the way ignorant westerners think it should be won. The US has gone in, 100% absolutely ignorant of the people and culture they're going into, and trying to make it Middle East America.

It'll never work, the US has screwed up, and eventually, they're going to have to leave, and let things take it's natural course or never leave and consider Iraq an occupied territory for enough generations to brainwash the entire population to the western culture.

SVT ZX3 · 10-22-2005, 01:59 AM

Funny how only now more Americans are starting to realize that this was a waste/mismanagement of money and soldiers lives. I still can't believe they elected George W a second time.

**Flofocus** · 10-22-2005, 02:19 AM

They were in 'war' time. The US would never elect a different President while theyre at 'war'.

Will be nice to see what the new prez will do <_<

FociPhil · 10-22-2005, 02:40 AM

I heard that month that they are occupying Iraq...that it cost like 4 billion dollars....thats friggin WACK!

Puppet makes good point. they should leave and let nature take its course.

NOS2Go4Me · 10-22-2005, 03:37 AM

This war will either break the US, or render the global economy pointless as they devalue the US dollar by continuing this debacle even further.

What's interesting is that they're so hard-up for cash, they refuse to lift softwood duties on Canadian imports even though NAFTA is in full (in)effect and several non-partisian tribunals have sided with Canada.

NOS2Go4Me · (This post was last modified: 10-22-2005, 03:40 AM by NOS2Go4Me.)

Whoops double post.

**ZTWsquared** · 10-22-2005, 03:53 AM

IMO the Bush regime lied about the actual goal of the war ... it was not WMD.

IMO it was in fact regime change; Saddam is out and a new, U.S. friendly regime installed, and so from that perspective the war has in fact already been "won" from an American POV.

It's the aftermath of the American "victory" that is untenable. IMO the Americans will never rid Irag of the so-called insurgents because there are simply too many and they are too integrated into every day society there.

Plus there are too many different agendas, religous, political and otherwise, that make it virtually impossible to create a unified Irag at peace --- at least not using methods that the world will agree to.

The fact is that the Americans will have to leave sometime because a token show of force will be useless and they can't afford a major presence there forever. I think the inevitable outcome of that will be significant social upheaval and quite likely civil war.

In any event, it seems clear to me that Irag as we've known it in the past quarter century will never exist again.

torradan · 10-22-2005, 05:07 AM

I think its pretty much a lost cause. Aside from monkeyhead Bush and a few of his buddies, I doubt anyone can see a reason why we're there. I think Bush and friends need to be over there, on the front lines, instead of sitting in their nice comfy chairs behind their desks.

Wish they'd just call it a day, suck it up, get the hell out, deal with the media and other countries slagging us for a while (not like thats anything new anyways), and then move on and stop being stupid. Once we pull out, I think it'll revert back to how it was, since no one will be babysitting and keeping the "peace".

Quite embarrassing to be American these days with all the retarded moves this gov't has been making the past handful of years. Thanks for not holding it against me on the cruise ;)

Raine · 10-22-2005, 06:06 AM

Wah wah wah, Bush caused a war the US can't win...

There has always been only one solution to the west and middle east not getting along. Take several nukes, and just obliterate the countries that are trouble (Israel, Palestine, Iran, Iraq, etc)... there's never going to be peace there.

Why are the militants there called Insurgents or Terrorists? If you one day had your home and family blown up by a stray tomahawk missle, wouldn't you be doing whatever was necessary to be rid of the invaders and those who support them? Those people are freedom fighters.

Frost__2001 · 10-22-2005, 07:09 AM

realisticly it will never end mainly because it would mean americans (bush) would loose out on controling all that Oil. Not to mention the way that it just might go, you might as well call Iraq the newest state in the American Union.

2001 ZTS · (This post was last modified: 10-22-2005, 12:50 PM by 2001 ZTS.)

George Bush II, ridder of commies and othet threats.

Love him or hate him, he is winning.

Don't forget that Libya gave up.

paolo · 10-22-2005, 10:33 PM

FociPhil,Oct 21 2005, 12:40 PM Wrote:I heard that month that they are occupying Iraq...that it cost like 4 billion dollars....thats friggin WACK!

Puppet makes good point. they should leave and let nature take its course.
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try the website: http://www.costofwar.com, its like a live counter that calculates how much the iraq war is costing everybody.

NOS2Go4Me · 10-23-2005, 12:28 AM

Nice find, Paolo.

I asked this without siding with one side or malice. I'm truly curious as to what everyone thinks. Torradan, for one, is part of a growing number of Americans who are vocalizing their distrust and dislike of the current US Gov's policies and war machine.

Andrew (2001ZTS) makes a good point, too. There's a lot of sides to this discussion, it's really a multi-faceted topic.

Yes, Saddam was an asshole and deserves to die. Yes, the Americans put him there years ago... just like they installed the Taliban 30 odd years ago and now they've declared the Taliban evil and installed Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan.

Al, the only reason I disagree with the "insurgents" being called freedom fighters even more than I hate them being called "insurgents" is the fact they're blowing up not only the men/women of their new police force (many of whom are simply going back to the job they had before the war) but they're blowing up women and children too. What about the most recent mortar attack earlier in the week that landed in an elementary school!?!?

You don't blow up your friends and neighbours to evict a dictatorial presence from your land. If they didn't do it when a lot of them hated Saddam, why can they suddenly do it now?

10-23-2005, 07:55 AM

Just my 2 cents, but I think you could substitute Bush for LBJ and Iraq for Vietnam and I'm sure I have heard this song before. Can we learn from history or are they (Americans) doomed to repeat the same mistakes? BTW, anyone keeping an eye on Hanoi Jane?( before she becomes Baghdad Jane!)

tdot-zx3 · 10-23-2005, 10:55 AM

NOS2Go4Me,Oct 22 2005, 02:28 PM Wrote:Al, the only reason I disagree with the "insurgents" being called freedom fighters even more than I hate them being called "insurgents" is the fact they're blowing up not only the men/women of their new police force (many of whom are simply going back to the job they had before the war) but they're blowing up women and children too. What about the most recent mortar attack earlier in the week that landed in an elementary school!?!?

You don't blow up your friends and neighbours to evict a dictatorial presence from your land. If they didn't do it when a lot of them hated Saddam, why can they suddenly do it now?
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Your pretty ignorant then you know....

Why call american troops .. and I quote ... "American / coalition troops leave Iraq" ... Theyve killed far more innocent people, more children, blew up more buildings. I call them AMERICAN INSURGENTS... because they werent wanted there and they still arent.

All the deaths in this 'war' so far can be attibuted to them. I hardly think the people who live there defending their country are the crazy ones... atleast not by your logic.

You cant take sides like that and call one side savage and not the other side either.... again... Ignorance.

tdot-zx3 · 10-23-2005, 10:56 AM

ZTWsquared,Oct 21 2005, 05:53 PM Wrote:IMO the Bush regime lied about the actual goal of the war ... it was not WMD.

Im laughing so hard at this too...

Give this guy a trophy.. "IMO".. "lied" ... lol ... thats great. *claps*

2001 ZTS · 10-23-2005, 11:09 AM

It is impossible to believe but take it or leave it GWII will be remembered as one of the greatest US Presidents. I personally have many differences but yet again he will be the one who rids the world of "rouge states" . He may be an idiot but RAHOWA is coming.

FocusGuy7476 · 10-23-2005, 02:30 PM

this war will not end, just continue till a president stops it or all of terrorism is gone. look at it from a different way. where would you rather fight a war, on your doorstep or in a completely different area code. Bush is waging this war in Iraq so that Homeland Security can establish measures to prevent another attack on US soil, you could also say that its for oil but why waste how many billions of dollars to secure just a little bit more oil. the money that has been spend on the war could have been used to create alternative energy sources. an army move on food, water, and oil, take away the food and you have malnurused troop, take away water and you have dehydrated troops, and you take away the oil you better have a lot food and water cause your troops are gonna be doing a lot of marching, not to mention the lack of heavy equipment to support the troops. think that makes sense.

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