[ZTWsquared]

I thought twice about writing this (I was going to post it in the “Boycott Ford” thread, but it is now locked) but I decided to post it because I enjoy a lot of what you write and value much of what you offer.

Unfortunately a lot of otherwise interesting and controversial posts seem to degenerate into name calling and the occasionally entertaining but thug-like personal attack. And although my comments do apply to others IMO, I must be honest in saying that you in particular inspired this post. My reason for stating them here is not to flame, but instead to impart some insight with the hope that we can all communicate just a bit better in future threads.

Let me start by saying that I consider myself to be a fair, balanced and open minded person more than capable of looking at both sides, cutting through the crap and seeing what’s really there; and I do this for a living. And because you appear to be a decent writer, I feel that I can make reasonable judgements about you; at least on the basis of what you have written.

For example, in the Boycott Ford thread you make a few comments about this being a “fact based” discussion and then conclude with the notion that no one is listening to or understanding your facts, and that for some personal reason everyone is arguing against you – hence the “deck is stacked” comment – indicating you feel that you have an unfair disadvantage in the discussion based on something personal.

Indeed you do have a disadvantage (at least in that thread), but it is hardly unfair … much the same as bringing a knife to a gun fight is unfair. I reread the entire thread – and my conclusion is this: you entered what you yourself proclaimed was a fact-based discussion without actually presenting any facts.

You stated your opinion in a way that made it pretty clear how you felt – but you didn’t support your opinion with any facts or even any representation of facts; you simply repeated your opinion in a variety of different ways. All well and good so far.

But when others pointed out what they felt were serious flaws and possibly hypocrisy in your logic, and supported these opinions with facts, you instead seemed to take this as a personal affront. Rather than dispute the facts or give your alternate intrepretation of them, you attacked the motives of the other.

In a rare bit of irony (although you probably didn’t know you were doing this) IMO you were claiming “argumentum ad hominem” against you, while at the same time you were guilty of this fallacy yourself.

And for those of you who long ago forgot Philosophy 101, a fallacy is a recognized mistake in reasoning, and argumentum ad hominem is the fallacy of attacking the person instead of attacking their argument; a classic example is “you couldn’t possibly be right because you attended special ed classes.”

Although it is a fine line, there is a distinction between saying “You’re wrong and you’re an idiot because of this fact, this fact and this line of reasoning” and “You’re wrong because you’re an idiot.” As an argument the first is acceptable (barely) ... the second isn’t.

So in conclusion please don’t take my comments as a personal attack, and don’t take my opinion as a reason for leaving the site – I am merely trying to articulate why I think a lot of otherwise interesting and controversial posts degenerate into name calling, with the hope that it can be avoided in the future.

[meford4u]

nice read.

Don't stop him from leaving.

I am not about to pick sides or be Mr. Nice guy.

And I don't need any facts. It's my opinion that counts. to me.

[darkpuppet]

ZTWsquared,Mar 27 2006, 05:40 PM Wrote:I thought twice about writing this (I was going to post it in the “Boycott Ford” thread, but it is now locked) but I decided to post it because I enjoy a lot of what you write and value much of what you offer.

Unfortunately a lot of otherwise interesting and controversial posts seem to degenerate into name calling and the occasionally entertaining but thug-like personal attack. And although my comments do apply to others IMO, I must be honest in saying that you in particular inspired this post. My reason for stating them here is not to flame, but instead to impart some insight with the hope that we can all communicate just a bit better in future threads.

Let me start by saying that I consider myself to be a fair, balanced and open minded person more than capable of looking at both sides, cutting through the crap and seeing what’s really there; and I do this for a living. And because you appear to be a decent writer, I feel that I can make reasonable judgements about you; at least on the basis of what you have written.

For example, in the Boycott Ford thread you make a few comments about this being a “fact based” discussion and then conclude with the notion that no one is listening to or understanding your facts, and that for some personal reason everyone is arguing against you – hence the “deck is stacked” comment – indicating you feel that you have an unfair disadvantage in the discussion based on something personal.

Indeed you do have a disadvantage (at least in that thread), but it is hardly unfair … much the same as bringing a knife to a gun fight is unfair. I reread the entire thread – and my conclusion is this: you entered what you yourself proclaimed was a fact-based discussion without actually presenting any facts.

You stated your opinion in a way that made it pretty clear how you felt – but you didn’t support your opinion with any facts or even any representation of facts; you simply repeated your opinion in a variety of different ways. All well and good so far.

But when others pointed out what they felt were serious flaws and possibly hypocrisy in your logic, and supported these opinions with facts, you instead seemed to take this as a personal affront. Rather than dispute the facts or give your alternate intrepretation of them, you attacked the motives of the other.

In a rare bit of irony (although you probably didn’t know you were doing this) IMO you were claiming “argumentum ad hominem” against you, while at the same time you were guilty of this fallacy yourself.

And for those of you who long ago forgot Philosophy 101, a fallacy is a recognized mistake in reasoning, and argumentum ad hominem is the fallacy of attacking the person instead of attacking their argument; a classic example is “you couldn’t possibly be right because you attended special ed classes.”

Although it is a fine line, there is a distinction between saying “You’re wrong and you’re an idiot because of this fact, this fact and this line of reasoning” and “You’re wrong because you’re an idiot.” As an argument the first is acceptable (barely) ... the second isn’t.

So in conclusion please don’t take my comments as a personal attack, and don’t take my opinion as a reason for leaving the site – I am merely trying to articulate why I think a lot of otherwise interesting and controversial posts degenerate into name calling, with the hope that it can be avoided in the future.
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euro just pointed this out to me.. thank you for posting this.

[scoobasteve]

:wub: Nice post...

[ZX3TUNR]

There words in there I cant even pronounce.

[microbunny]

Well put...

I think one of the biggest problems is everyone thinks they are an expert on everything and its really lame!

If you don't know something....don't pretend....ASK!

Everyone can always learn something new...although some of you guys make me laugh at how much you think you know~!

[euro_zx5]

Well put as always!

[ANTHONYD]

Nicely said.

[OAC_Sparky]

Yes, well put.

[Flofocus]

My opinion.....This place would be better with NOS out of the way. Sorry Steve, I know you probably dont want one of your mods to do this, but I feel like I have to say this. Maybe if we could fix the quote thing for ignore, I'll change my mind. ;)

There's a reason why lots of us have him on ignore. Nos is the only guy on *my* list. That must tell you something right there. I read his posts, and I roll my eyes, not virtually, but I really sit here and roll my eyes wondering what he just posted was serious or not. The last episode....the whole boycott ford stuff....he gets mad because I mentioned that he wouldnt learn from any of this....he specifically pointed out a nice "f*** you Nate". I'm not to sure about everybody else here, but if somebody says that to your face, it ususally ends up with a fat lip. No? Nos will come on here and give s*** to people for spending their hard earned money on a skidoo but then gets all mad at us for saying his 'Sedan S2 conversion' is retarded. Hes gotta realise its a 2 way street. Were not on this baord to get him.

I mean the bunny and I always go at eachother, but I still take the time to see what he says, even if its fawkin dumb. :o :ph34r: :blink: Is he on my ignore list? No

Frig...meford just sent me a PM titled f*** you nate. He constantly makes fun of my 'junk yard' turbo, calls me a s***ty mod, and gets all pissy everytime I show his wife some new moves. Is he on my ignore list? No, cuz I know he's joking around and I can do the same with him. If I was to do that with NOS, I'd be expecting a 3009 page novel basically telling me to fawk off. :rolleyes:


How much more of this are you gonna take Steve? He comes here, spews his s***, then leaves for a couple of days, then comes back and spews more crap. *I'm* really getting tired of it and I dont even see half his posts!!!

EDIT: Scooba is an asshole to.

[scoobasteve]

awww, i'm hurt nate that you left me out...

so go f*** yourself

hahaha! i is teh winn4r! :ph34r:

(does that constitute as a personal attack???)

[microbunny]

Flofocus,Mar 27 2006, 06:20 PM Wrote:I mean the bunny and I always go at eachother, but I still take the time to see what he says, even if its fawkin dumb. :o  :ph34r:  :blink:  Is he on my ignore list?  No

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f*** u....you dont have the stones to 'ignore' me....

jerkass!

[meford4u]

dum da dum dum dummmmmmmmmmmm

And I mean that in the musical way. More drama.

I have to side with Nate here. But my vote is well versed and my opinion skewed. We all know that his permaban is coming sooner or later. Your just holding out hope that he changes sooner rather than later and stops the crybaby antics and internet tough guy attitude that it's my way or the highway.

I really don't see how having him on the site is a positive.

And many of you might be saying to yourself the same thing about me. But if you've met me, you'd learn I am just as much of a jackass in person as I am on the board. Adam is actually a nice guy at times in person, but comes across like a bull in a china shop on the net.

We aren't out to get you adam. Just telling it like it is and maybe sending a message out to you to cool it. Because telling a mod f*** you, IMO , you deserve a ban.

You seem to think that everytime someone brings you down a notch, they too deserve a ban. It's all about knowing the difference between respect and playtime. I even get it confused at times, as I did with Oscar. But I know well enough when I have gone too far and apologize. I think you owe Nate an apology.

But in the end, we all respect that it's your site Steve and your opinion is important to us all.

[darkpuppet]

The truth of the matter is that every decision an Admin makes is going to be held over his head. This is the burden I bear.

I get a lot of complaints about people offending other people and for taking sides with other people. The truth is that while I try to make the most objective decision I can, I take each and every criticism personally. I have a lot invested in this site and I want to see it succeed, and I want to see everyone happy.

And every once in a while, I sit up and accept reality.

In this case, I recognize that NOS is a valued member of this site. He's one of the few who's taken the SPI under his wing and can help fellow SPIers out. Do I like his debating style? hell no.

But not banning him is a decision I made in good faith to illustrate a point I'm not sure is going to get noticed.

But that doesn't mean that people should be disrespectful to moderators or the admin, and such behaviour won't be tolerated. I give benefit of the doubt, I don't give free passes. Please respect my decision.

p.s. I think everyone gets many opportunities on this board to take the high road, I just wish more people would take it.

[microbunny]

meford4u,Mar 27 2006, 06:34 PM Wrote:...But if you've met me, you'd learn I am just as much of a jackass in person as I am on the board....

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UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR....AND THE AWARD GOES TO.....

[Flofocus]

I dont want an aplogy.

And just so that everybody knows. I've NEVER met meford, yet we can still get a long pretty good. I've never met bunny, yet we still get a long pretty good also.

[scoobasteve]

Flofocus,Mar 27 2006, 06:38 PM Wrote:I dont want an aplogy.

And just so that everybody knows.  I've NEVER met meford, yet we can still get a long pretty good.  I've never met bunny, yet we still get a long pretty good also.
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:wub: .... aw shucks...

hahaha

[microbunny]

Flofocus,Mar 27 2006, 06:38 PM Wrote:I dont want an aplogy.

And just so that everybody knows.  I've NEVER met meford, yet we can still get a long pretty good.  I've never met bunny, yet we still get a long pretty good also.
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Thats why we get along... :lol:

[darkpuppet]

p.s. I don't mind people airing their griefs, but don't turn this into bullying someone off the site either... it's a fine line, and ztwsquared, I may need your help to define that line.

[OAC_Sparky]

microbunny,Mar 27 2006, 06:36 PM Wrote:

meford4u,Mar 27 2006, 06:34 PM Wrote:...But if you've met me, you'd learn I am just as much of a jackass in person as I am on the board....

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UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR....AND THE AWARD GOES TO.....
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I second that!

But that's OK, I have plenty of jackass friends, even been accused of being one myself occasionally. :lol: