[ZTWsquared]

ZX3TUNING,May 26 2006, 05:27 PM Wrote:*deep breath*

take it for what it's worth...
[right][snapback]189799[/snapback][/right]

Serious question ... based on the original post, do you recommend what he's thinking of doing ... or are you recommending something else? No offense intended ... but I read your post twice and I couldn't figure out what your recommendation was.

post #1 Wrote:Also I would like to tighten up the supsension just a little bit. I don't want it to be a drag car or a slammed show car. I would like to set it up as a nice GT car, that is good for long trips on the highway. I need the car to start everytime and drive smooth. What I was thinking of getting for the car are as follows.


Performance
---------------
SVT Brake kit
SVT Suspension kit
Powerworks Supercharger
Torsen T-2 LSD

[Mach5]

ZX3TUNING,May 26 2006, 06:27 PM Wrote:*deep breath*
i hate to say it guys but having driven a few or a lot of cars with different suspensions on the street is not an accurate way to suggest one product over another.
I'd wager dollars to doughnuts that the cars you guys have driven or ridden in where not pushed anywhere close to the limits so suggesting one kit over another for "performance" is not a reliable suggestion. If you want to comment on a strictly "comfort/sporty" feel, go right ahead. :)

I'm not saying the SHM kit is or is not a nice kit, however when we had it on our Yellow ZX3 Pre and post V6 swap, the car really did not perform as well as you make it sound at the limit.
oh and for the skidpad/slolom/autoX, i'd put an H&R cup kit and H&R rear bar over pretty much any other "of the shelf" setup.

as for having to dial in suspension, that really is a comment based on bad word of mouth info.
suspension setup is not hard or some magical "black art" at the level you can buy parts at for the focus.
Coilovers are pretty easy to setup, adjust the ride height to about where you want it, get it corner weighted and you are finished. that's it, no other major adjustments need to be made. no major adjustments need to be made for the addition of other parts either; sway bars, extra camber, strut bars.
if you are getting into dampening adjustable coilovers and do not track the car seriously then you are very simply wasting your money and time. you will not be able to dial said coilovers in unless you are a very skilled and consistant driver who undertands how a little extra dampening in the back will alter the car's handling over say, more rear sway and a little extra camber.

personally for light track use and AutoX i suggest sport kits as the most important part about being fast is knowing the car and learning it's handling. sport kits do not allow any adjustments and thus make you focus on your driving without having the itch to try different settings. SEAT TIME makes you a better driver, not parts.

when it all comes down to it, TIRES are the single most important part of a suspension which is why i shake my head when i see some of you guys suggest crap like those Nexxan or BFG KDW tires as a "performance" tire. i hate to say it but a lot of you guys pass off hearsay as fact on other people, many of you have not even tried the things you suggest. there is a big difference between a "perfomance tire" and a "low profile"... most of you guys run "low profile tires." :)


simple fact, more rear bar = a more neutral handling FWD car.
this IS what you want if you are even remotely concerned with performance.
Yes, it can make the car difficult to drive at the limit which is good as it will make you a beter driver once you get it.
but then again, if you are being an asshat and driving at the limit on public roads, then maybe swaping ends into a gaurdrail might be what you need to bring you back to reality not to do such stupid things. Seriously, i mean that! do not drive like an ass on public roads!

I have driven most of the available suspensions for the Focus on the street and a lot of those same setups at the AutoX or on closed test circuits.
are there better Setups than what i have suggested? of course but for the average person in the average car you will have a hard time finding a better setup than either H&R cupkits with a H&R 24mm rear bar; both for performance handling as well as a nice smooth and comfortable ride.



i have tried 8 different suspension setups on my Silver car: H&R big drop cup kit, H&R coilovers, Eibach Pro System, Eibach Sportline system, Gossow Sport kit, FK coilovers, Intrax springs on stock shocks and the Vogtland(sp) sport kit.

the H&R cup kit was by far the nicest ride with extremely solid handling but the drop was too much for my euro bumpers.. :P

the H&R coilovers were nice but i found them to be underdampened at the limit and there was to much compliance due to softer spring rates designed for the street more than the track.

i HATED the Sportline system with a passion, i have never come across such a badly setup "matched Setup" ever. sprinsg were too soft, dampners too hard, just a bad option unless you can find a really good deal on them and are looking for that exact drop, i'd still pay for the bigdrop H&R cupkit over getting a sportline system for free!

Prokit was decent but at the limit it was not anything to rave about.

intrax sprinsg on stock shocks, this was the first setup on the car, actually came with the car and wasn't bad intill it whiped out thed shocks. needless to say, Springs on stock shocks/struts is never a good choice for "performance" driving.  :)

FK coilovers, decent for the money, comparable to the H&R coilovers but more compliance at the limit and the spring rates were not balanced propperly front to rear to make them a contender at the AutoX or Track in my opinion.

Vogtland(sp) sport kit, nice it for the money, decent ride, decent in turns, defiantely not a kit designed to be drive at or near the limit in any way. good option for a street cruiser if on a budget.

and finally the Gossow Sport kit, one of 3 in exsistance in NA which replaced the Intrax kit and which always seems to make it back onto my car.
this is the hardest, most perfomance oriented sport kit i have come across to date, and one of the reasons why it always makes it back on to my car after each suspension i have tested. not the smoothest kit by any means but that was not the selling point to this kit. Designed originally as a Track-based sport kit, it has near perfectly matches springs rates front and rear and the dampening is also matched perfectly to each srping rate respectively.
this sport kit with an Eibach rear bar, Kumho V700 tires, Quaife LSD and 4.06 final drive lead me to the 2nd in FSP and 3rd in rookie standings. very neutral with off-throttle overstear available upon command which was clean and controlable becasue of the springs rates and dampening and the LSD allowed power to be apllied to drag the car back online without fail. same setup pulled .98g combind both ways around a 100ft skidpad and would pull 1.05g on track.

i have tested with more than a few different setups, front bars are a WASTE of money unless: A.) you like it when a car plows through corners at or near the limit. B.) have  HUGE rear bar and track the car seriously. C.) enjoy talking about driving your car more than actually driving said car! D.) bragging online about how you have front and rear sway bars! ;) :P

Running the Eibach front and rear bars added almost 2 seconds or more to my times while AutoXing and 3-5 seconds to my average lap times over just the rear bar on the same setup.

take it for what it's worth...
[right][snapback]189799[/snapback][/right]

ZX3 what was your impression of the stock SVT suspension setup? I never drive on anything except public roads myself .5 drop vs 1.4. This is a pretty hard decision. I'm still leaning toward the H&R touring kit though. Big price difference.

[ZX3TUNING]

ZTWsquared,
I still stand by my original suggestion of the H&R Touring cup kit and H&R 24mm Rear bar over the SVT kit.

I posted that long post because everyone seem to start posting hearsay and opinions as fact which does not help anyone really....
"don't bring your rear anti-sway up without bringing up the front accordingly... oversteer like that in a front-drive is... entertaining to say the least, especially at speed."
I'd be curious to know how many cars were driven with front and rear bars, with just rear bars and without bars at or near thed limit to formulate such a statement...?
these are comments not based in fact but bad word of mouth speculation with what sounds like no real world exp. i have driven my car with a stock front bar and 25mm Eibach rear bar for years at very high speed on and off the track, in wet and dry and the only time i get oversteer is when i want it. if you get "snap-oversteer" propperly called "off-throttle oversteer" in a FWD car then you have no idea how to propperly drive said car in the first place. Yes, it does take more driving skill to handle such a setup but if you are not capable of handling it, then make a point of LEARNING to or just don't waste the money in the first place.

This is my opinion, based in fact... tried, tested, proven in my car and countless other track-slut focus. you would be hard pressed to find a Focus that is competitive in AutoX or track events that was running a 24/25 or 24/24 f/r sway bar combo. last i checked P51 was running a 24 or 25mm rear bar and trying to find an even samller front bar from a SPI for his Focus...

and for the record, what ever Mach5 decides to get, it's his choice. if he does listen to me and go with the H&R kit i have no doubts that he will be nothing short of delighted with his choice! now if he wants to buy them from me or any other H&R dealer, that is up to him. i'm not fishing for a sale, just offering my honest opinion on the subject at hand and trying to answer his questions with fact-based answers. :)


Mach5,
i have driven a lot of SVTs and while the suspension is very nice for a stock car, i sell a lot of the H&R cup kits(mainly the bigger drop kits) to SVT owners who are nothing but smiles after the the kit is on the car. only down side to the big drop kits is you will need to roll the fendes with the EAP and SVT rim offsets to eliminate any rub. not a lot as rub only seems to happen under hard cornering but enough to be an issue for some! again why i suggest the Touring cupkit with it's 1.5" drop for you.
it all comes down to personal pref but if more than a few SVT owners are "upgrading"(if some want to call it that) to aftermarket kits and are impressed and pleased with the difference...then what does that say about the SVT kit?
is the SVT kit better than the stock focus kit, hell yes. is it better than an aftermarket kit, yes and no... some aftermarket kits are JUNK! ;)
the SVT kit is a sporty compramise between a serious performance suspension and a very compliant commuter suspension.

i'm not trying to flame anyone or anything like that, it's just if i told you the sky was purple, even if i was colour blind, it doesn't mean it is true. if some people have issues with just rear sway giving them serious oversteer, it's not the car and it's not the parts, it is the driver.

Some people think the SVT kit is a great kit!
Some people think the SHM kit is a great kit!
Some people think the H&R kits are great kits!

just remember to take it with a grain of salt and look at what they drive, where they drive and how the drive.
a good way of telling if someone has serious under their belt is by asking what sort of rims and tires they run. if they are running heavy 17,18 or 19" wheels with Nexxan or cheap low profile tires, chances are they are building for "LOOKS" rather than performance. not to say they didn't get some better handling out of it, but rims and tires like that would not do much in the way of helping performance at or near the limit.
Now if the person was running some light weight 15s, 16s or 17s with something like Toyo T1S or T1R's, Falken RT615s or RT215s or FK451s/452s, or any other high end "MAX" performance tire, they would probably be the person i would tend to listen to about an opinion of what does and/or doesn't work.

Sorry for the long post.

:)

[ZX3TUNING]

Mach5,
if price is an issue, then maybe going with the SVT kit is a better option.
Again, it's your choice and your money.

[NOS2Go4Me]

All I said was taking away the car's natural propensity to understeer by default was a bad idea. I then went on to say that I've experienced snap oversteer at speed and didn't like it. Putting a rear bar on that's larger than the stock front/rear ratio as issued by the factory would cause the car to handle in a manner that deviates from expected "norms".

I've never said I've tested the snot out of different Focus setups :)

[darkpuppet]

I made my suggestion based on what the guy wanted...

There's a difference between ultra 'high performance' and 'streetable'... everyone builds up their cars for different reasons... in my case, I wanted a daily driver with a bit of extra performance that didn't change the inherent handling of the car.

what's wrong with wanting that? a medium drop, a car with a bit of understeer, but still capable of bringing the rear end around... it's a good, 'safe' kit. A lot of people get into performance parts without ever knowing what it will do to their car.. and then they get surprised.

While I would recommend everyone go take a performance driving course and do some auto-X, not everyone is going to do it...

I admit I don't know all the kits at the limit, but my point of view was from a streetability point of view... not sure why it needs to be dismissed as hearsay... it's just an opinion offered to address the question that was asked.

p.s. BTW.. great writeup... something for anyone interested in suspension to read up on.

[naz]

this i starting to remind me of 'what is the best oil' or what is the best helmet threads that other forums always seem to have!

EDIT: i recommend stock suspension and waiting for the azenis sport RT615 to be available in the 225/50/15 size. i believe the stock focus wheel is 6" wide, and i think that is a permissible wheel width for those tires.

[ZX3TUNING]

NOS,
what i was saying was that if you exp'ed snap oversteer at speed it was your driving inputs that caused it, not the car. beening deep into a corner and lifting aburptly is most likely what cause the snap-oversteer. I'd be hard pressed to believe the car did it on it's own.

Dark,
Like i said, i'm not disagreeing with you that the SHM kit is or isn't suitable for a daily driving situation. I just was not all that impressed with it on our Yellow car Pre and post V6 Swap... part of the reason why we went to FK coilovers with Mondeo springs in the front. and while in most cases a car that understeers is slightly safer in the hands of a novice driver it can also be just and dangerous. a 24mm and 24mm sway bars setup is a very back setup on a focus imho. it kills the balance of the car and does not have clean breakaway that is "expected."
With the Eibach 24mm fr and 25mm rear, i had to work extremely hard to get the rear end to step out and when it did the stiff front made it harder to real back in cleanly. if you want to ride that 10% slip angle, a smaller front bar is required.

like i said, it's a trade off, to run a bigger rear bar with a stock from, more driving skill is required but the end result is a much better handling car. in an ideal world i'd like to see someone make a 22mm front with a 25mm rear as a "KIT". this would stiffen up the front enough to keep the understeer where it would need to be but stiff enough in the rear where throttle inputs could steer the car aswell.

Naz,
difference between this thread and those is that those threads are usually full of people who have only tired one or maybe 2 things. and oil is oil. unless you are racing the car and are having issues with oil temps, standard 10w30 oil will work in EVERY car. :)
in some cases the stock suspension is a good option but again, i believe the driver skill needs to be ther to take advantage of it with the use of tires like that. there is a lot of travel to the stock suspension and the grip of sticker tires can make "feeling" the breakaway point difficult for a novice driver or so i have noticed at the track and AutoX. i see far more Novice pushing to hard or not hard enough from one run to the next with such setups... it's hard to find that fine line.
but yes, if you are a good enough driver, and there are many out there, you can lay waste to much faster and harder sprung cars.



Basically what i'm trying to say/do is get people away from suggesting one part over another because of minimal exp they have had with either or just word of mouth.
unless you have tested something and have personal exp with it it would be best to add, "i don't know if it's true or not but from what i have heard..."
if you got Snap-oversteer in a Matrix, how does that effect a focus? is a Matrix a Focus? Have you driven a Focus in the same place under the same conditions/situation and had the same results? what do you think caused the snap-oversteer?
These arfe the questions i ask when i see such things because i need to know why that person thinks the way they do to suggest such issues.

Cars are my life, they fund me and are a major source of enjoyment for me, so understanding how they work and how certain inputs cause changes is a major part of what i do. i have to look at things like this topic, the way i have to help people fix problems or better understand why "this" is happening and what they can do to fix or correct the problem.

I'd much rather educate a customer than make a sale.
if i can help someone develope an idea of what they want then i can better suggest a route of going to get to that end result. this ALWAYS leads to a happier customer which is the name of the game, isn't it?

if i come off as harsh and abrupt, sorry, not my intention but that is my nature. :D

[darkpuppet]

maybe we can have you do a 'tech' article comparing suspension... you ever have a chance to do any comparative and objective testing like a skid pad or slalom (or track a la the stig)?

It would be great to allow people to make an informed decision..

a simple synopsys like the following

suspension kit
for: those who like to x
not: if you like to y
Pros: blah blah blah stiff, but easy on the kidneys... blah blah blah
cons: kiss your kidneys goodbye on long trips...blah blah blah

seriously... PM me if you (or anyone else) is interested.

[NOS2Go4Me]

Actually it was an emergency lane change at 120 or so. What I meant was I didn't want him to go through it, hence not messing with the front/rear ratio on the bar sizing :)

No harm, no foul.

I just found it rather incredible - the delta in handling response and recovery between the Matrix and the Focus.

[Mach5]

ZX3 in another thread you said you are currently selling powerworks kits and your cams for "cost with cams, tax and Shipping, $4500cnd". I don't have access to anyone who could tune my kit. Would this work ok on a stock car with the stock powerworks tune? I was going to do my suspension/brakes first but with the current price you are offering it makes it tempting to get the power first. I only have access to 91 Octane as well. Would there be a chance of detonation using the above parts. I have to keep the car pretty safe as I use it as my daily driver. Also how many hours do you think it would take a mechanic to intall these parts. I was thinking of having my local Ford dealer install it for me.

[darkpuppet]

I believe you have to ship your ECU off to powerworks for a reflash...

and they should be able to tune for 91 for ya (most likely the stock tune they offer as that's the only gas you can find in california too)

[Mach5]

ZX3TUNING, would it be ok to use your cams & powerworks package on a completely stock car. Also how long does it take to install cams in a Focus? Also what kind of shipping do you use within Canada?

[naz]

Mach5,Jun 1 2006, 12:44 AM Wrote:ZX3TUNING, would it be ok to use your cams & powerworks package on a completely stock car.  Also how long does it take to install cams in a Focus? Also what kind of shipping do you use within Canada?
[right][snapback]190762[/snapback][/right]

i don't remember who sells it, but there is a pin that threads into the block and stops the crank so the piston nearest the timing belt is at tdc. makes life a lot easier having that

[ZX3TUNING]

i ship Via Canada Post and Xpresspost inside canada, fastest, most reliable and cheapest to boot!
we so not suggest the cams on an otherwise stock car, the exhaust should be opened up or the gains from the cams would be negated by the restriction in the exhaust. the PW kit will work perfectly fine on a completely stock car, it was actually designed for it. :)

Install time on cams depends on who is doing it
Anywhere from 2-6hours is within reason, better shops more familiar with the car will be able to do it faster than others who are not.

[cowymo]

Remember to post some pictures!!! :)